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Alpine
(@alpine)
Active Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 8
05/07/2018 3:37 pm  

As we all know one of the most important parts of a successful cycle is recovery and holding onto your gains. The end of my cycle is approaching and I want to have everything ready. I was planning on taking a slightly more aggressive PCT this time around. I wanted to try some legal supplements along with the more traditional ones. It’s somewhat based on Pheedno’s traditional PCT.

Here is what I was thinking. (Cycle included)
1-4: BD Dbol 25mg/day
1-14: 500mg/wk ICN test enanthate.
11-16: 12-16mg DS m4ohn

Week 16 on – PCT
Day 1-30: .25mg L-dex (or .5mg EOD) + 100mg clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 20-44: 500mg/Day Ergopharm 6oxo
Day 30-45: Nutrex Vitrix (1000mg Tribulus Terrestris 80/20, 500mg NTS-5)

I also plan to start taking creatine again (possibly Nutrex Vitargo) at the start of PCT.

What do you guys think? What changes would you make? I really want to hit PCT from all angles this time. Should I leave the m4ohn how it is? The only thing I wish I could get my hands on his some HCG, but this will have to do.


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liftsiron
(@liftsiron)
Estimable Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 127
05/07/2018 4:23 pm  

imo bro if needed continue pct with 50mgs Clomid and 20mgs nolva until percieved recovery. I believe 6OXO and trib are an expensive waste of money.

liftsiron is a fictional character and should be taken as such.


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Alpine
(@alpine)
Active Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 8
05/07/2018 5:01 pm  

Ya, they are a bit expensive. And their value as a recovery aid is debatable... I just added them from a " it cant hurt" point of view. Do you guys think my Clomid/Nolvadex dosages and time lengths are good enough?


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Seabiscuit Hogg
(@seabiscuit-hogg)
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Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 56
05/07/2018 5:36 pm  

I don't understand the purpose of using SERM's and L-dex concurrently. It would probably be better to start the L-dex at the end of PCT to prevent estrogen rebound and maintain endogenous test levels.

Have to agree with liftsiron on the 6OXO and tribulus. Pretty much a waste of money.

Seabiscuit Hogg is a fictious internet character. It is not recommended that you receive medical advice from fictious internet characters.

SBH :)


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Alpine
(@alpine)
Active Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 8
05/07/2018 6:15 pm  

This is Pheedno's theory on PCT from Anabolic Review. It seems to make a lot of sense although some dont agree with using L-dex for PCT. I dont really know which way is the best to go.

I already have some 6oxo. So I might as wel use it. How would you arrange it in the PCT. For the sake of my question how would you arrange the said compounds for maximum benefit. I know Tribulus is hardly rock solid science....


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liftsiron
(@liftsiron)
Estimable Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 127
05/07/2018 7:13 pm  

I personally wouldn't use l-dex with the nolva and Clomid. I don't see any harm but i also don't see any real need.

liftsiron is a fictional character and should be taken as such.


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Alpine
(@alpine)
Active Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 8
05/07/2018 7:58 pm  

Could you (or anyone else) expand on why you think its a bad idea? Pheedno has quite a bit of information on the subject in that link I pasted. It seemed to make sense to me... Im just trying to get all viewpoints and some science to back them up.


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Seabiscuit Hogg
(@seabiscuit-hogg)
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Posts: 56
05/07/2018 8:52 pm  
Posted by: Alpine
Could you (or anyone else) expand on why you think its a bad idea? Pheedno has quite a bit of information on the subject in that link I pasted. It seemed to make sense to me... Im just trying to get all viewpoints and some science to back them up.

6OXO is supposedly an ai, so I would question it's purpose during PCT.

I have some problems with that article. The first one being that it suggests nolva doesn't bind, or binds poorly to ER's in the hypothalamus. There are plenty of studies showing that tamoxifen does indeed act upon the hypothalamus and increases both LH and FSH. A lot of ppl on this board use nolva exclusively for PCT.
Another problem is the supposition that SHBG's are bad during PCT. One of the reasons that Clomid and nolva work so well for PCT is they both increase SHBG's. Since circulating androgens can also hinder restoration of the HPTA, and SHBG's bind both T & E, this is a good thing.

Seabiscuit Hogg is a fictious internet character. It is not recommended that you receive medical advice from fictious internet characters.

SBH :)


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Restless
(@restless)
Active Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 8
05/07/2018 9:48 pm  

"Arimidex(or L-dex)
Estrogen is the main inhibitence of restoring HPTA, and AI administration has been shown to increase gonadotrophin concentrations and serum Testosterone by up to 50%. In addition, by adding L-dex, the inhibitence of excess estrogen allows Tamox to work greater at LH stimulation in the begining stages of PCT, since the need to prevent binding in the mammery is lessened by the reduction in estrogen biosynthesis"

This last sentence is curious. Is this guy saying that tamoxifen is such a smart compound that it can actually figure if there's too much estrogen around and then decide if there's a need or not to bind to the estrogen receptors in the breast tissue? And in case there isn't it goes on to his other duties?


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liftsiron
(@liftsiron)
Estimable Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 127
06/07/2018 6:26 am  

Also if l-dex was used during the cycle there shouldn't be alot of excess estrogen at the start of post cycle anyhow. L-dex doesn't block estrogen at the receptor like nolva but rather limits production in the first place.

liftsiron is a fictional character and should be taken as such.


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Big Cat
(@big-cat)
Estimable Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 104
06/07/2018 7:08 am  

Here is the reason I don't believe in using AI's under any condition unless strictly necessary :

1.Estrogen lowers aromatase. Inhibiting estrogen upregulates aromatase and causes a drastic increase in estrogen upon cessation of the AI (Nakamura et al, 1999).

2.Inhibition of aromatase upregulates the Estrogen Receptor (Agarwal et al, 2000). When AI's are ceased and there is a massive in estrogen following that due to increased aromatase, you not only get more estrogen, but you are also more prone to it.

This is the reason why people who use AI's once are forced to use them every cycle afterwards. A beginner using up to a gram of test has no problems with gyno, while a long time user who normally uses AI's may get gyno from a mere 300 mg. i simply don't believe in using AI's unless strictly necessary. SERMS act faster and can be used to intervene when problems arise and treatment can be stopped when problem is solved.

Good things come to those who weight.

The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.


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JGUNS
(@jguns)
Trusted Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 78
06/07/2018 8:00 am  

I would add to big cat by saying that Arimidex will suppress SHBG post cycle which will slow recovery to normal testosterone levels. Also, with the increase in possible development of atherosclerotic plaques I don't think it is worth the risk. The use of AI's post cycle is not just a bad idea, it is a worthless one.

The tribulus and 6oxo are also not needed. Tribulus is supposed to work by raising LH, but you are going to get that anyway with the nolva and/or Clomid.

The reason that I would use nolvadex post cycle would be to stave off possible gyno symptoms as I am prone to it. Otherwise, it should be one or the other. I prefer nolvadex myself.

I also wonder why you haven't included HCG post cycle. Seems to me that it would be a good choice to use towards the end of the cycle or right after as it would put yourself in the best possible position to receive the benefits of the nolva/Clomid.

The best strategy for pct is correctly timing the usage of HCG and then running nolva/Clomid for an appropriate amount of time. I believe that too many run N/C for too short a period of time.

I would run a PCT for you like this:

HCG 500 IU EOD last 2 weeks of cycle and first two weeks of PCT.

Nolva 40-60 MG ED for 2 weeks 40 MG for 1 month


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Nandi
(@nandi)
Estimable Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 123
06/07/2018 8:32 am  

Big Cat makes some good points and I agree with him about restricting the use of AI's. To me post cycle recovery means recovery of gonadal function. This implies a return of total testosterone to normal pre-cycle levels. Estrogen increases sex hormone binding globulin, preventing free testosterone levels from reaching the point where they themselves impede recovery. Conversely, taking an aromatase inhibitor post cycle keeps SHBG artificially low, in turn making free testosterone artificially high. As stated, this elevated free test will act back on the HPTA to slow recovery.

That's my theory anyway, based on bloodwork readings that guys have sent me who used AI's post cycle and were having terrible recoveries.

I'd stick with SERMs. We have numerous posts here about possible actions they may exert (eg increasing pituitary GnRH receptor density) beyond their ability to block estrogen related negative feedback.

Note: I see JGUNS and I posted pretty much simultaneously about SHBG, with him beating me to the punch a bit


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liftsiron
(@liftsiron)
Estimable Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 127
06/07/2018 9:32 am  

I have seen beginners show definite signs of gyno on 500 mgs of sus without ever having used an AI. I also know guys who use AI's on large cycles then drop back to maintence doses and discontinue the AI's and don't seem to have drastic estrogen related problems. Of couses individuals react differantly to these compounds.

liftsiron is a fictional character and should be taken as such.


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Alpine
(@alpine)
Active Member
Joined: 3 months  ago
Posts: 8
06/07/2018 10:11 am  

Guys, I really appreciate all your posts. Clomid/Nolva was always the core of my PCT plan. I just dont have access to HCG... yet

As for the other stuff, I figured it couldnt hurt. I hoped it could help but i knew it wasnt really backed by anything. I do have some 6oxo unopened that I bought a long time ago. Its a mild AI in comparison to l-dex depending on dosage. Im not sure when to run it. I guess if im going to shy away from AI totally i shouldnt even use it Post Cycle. It is supposed to help recovery... much more so than its AI benefits - that is supposedly.

So how about

Clomid: 100mg - 30 days
Nolva: 20-40mg 30 days ?

HCG if i can get my hands on it


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