Notifications
Clear all
Topic starter
17/08/2018 12:48 pm
I would like to explain the benefits of short cycles for the recreational lifter, and that includes 95% of us I think. I would also like to clear up a few misconceptions in regard to short cycles in general.
WHAT MAKES A CYCLE SHORT
Short cycles are steroid cycles that do not exceed 4 weeks ,with 2-3 weeks "on" preferred.
WHY DO SHORT CYCLES
The main reason is to limit the negative health impact that steroids DO have on users.
For those of you that don't get lab work done while on steroids I would have you know that steroid use causes a very bad shift in the lipid profile. HDL(good cholesterol) which acts like a sticky sweeping broom to sweep up bad LDL (bad cholesterol) and prevent plaque build up on atery walls, goes EXTREMELY LOW in, dare I say, ALL MEN. Not only this but LDL levels usually climb and this is combo is not good.
Short cycles still cause a crappy lipid shift but not to the same degree as the long cycle. Also less time "On" means less time for potential aterial plaque build up.
After my last long cycle of 8 weeks I had some blood work done and my doc HAD A COW as my hdl to total cholesterol ratio was extremely poor.
There isn't a damn thing you can do to significantly avoid this....you can take niacin , flax oil , do cardio and have a pefect diet low in saturated fat and you will STILL get a very shitty lipid profile.
So a very bad lipid profile with high ldl and rock bottom hdl is a SIGNIFICANT risk factor for aterial plaque build up and heart disease. As a side....anyone that thinks "Arny" only got his aortic valve done doesn't have a clue. I know for a fact that he had a coronary bypass as I have worked with members of the heart team that did his operation.
True there are other risk factors for heart disease but this is a big one and well documented as well.
HEW!!! Next ...short cycles limit other side effects like hair loss, acne, high Blood pressure and resulting kidney stress, testicular shrinkage and poor HPTA rebound.
Also short cycles are a heck of a lot easier on the old liver especially if 17aa orals are used....got to love D-bol he he he !
WHAT SHORT CYCLES ARE NOT
Short cycles will not result in bigger gains. Short cycles will not allow one to be competive in todays national level competitions. Short cycles will not give you 30 pounds of bulk at one time.
WHAT SHORT CYCLES CAN DO
Short cycles can give you decent gains that are FAR better than what you could attain to as a natural. Gains of 10 pounds are not infrequently kept form a short cycle with the novice or those that are not at least very close to their natural maximum weight.
Short cycles will allow a much quicker HPTA recovery than a long cycle and this allows one to kepp a higher percentage of ones gains. In fact full testosterone rebound often happens in but a week. Gains often continue in the weeks after the short cycle is over simply because ones natural test production often jumps a little higher than normal becuase the pituitary really hammers out the LH and the testes have not shunk.
My natural test production is quite good for a man of 40, at 550. I tested my test level a week after I stopped a 14 day cycle and it had rebonded to 650 from the immediate pre cycle 550. On day 15 it was down to 54!
How many of you bro's have experience gains AFTER coming off a 8 weeker...not a one I would say.
Lets face it bro's if you gain 25 -30 pouns of bulk in a long cycle you sure the hell aren't going to be able to hang onto more than 15 of those pounds over the next 6 months unless you were WAY WAY under your potential to begin with.
BEFORE DOING SHORT CYCLES.....
learn how to train and gain WITHOUT steroids. This is critical! IF one knows how to train without gear then adding a small amount of gear over a short period of time can result in great gains.
Trouble is almost nobody knows how to gain without steroids so they do the large doses over long periods of time to compensate for their chronic over training and poor training, sleeping habits.
ORIGIN OF SHORT CYCLES AND VARIATIONS
Well I am sure that there have always been men that used short cycles but the first one that I know of that actually spoke up on the matter was NELSON MONTANA, formerly of T-MAG.
NELSON MONTANA advocated, and still does advocate, cycles of 3 weeks in length. Modest doses are used of 1000mg per week TOTAL or less. Injectables and orals are used. Usually the injectable is in a long acting ester and not injected once per week but several times per week in smaller doses as he belives this is better for anabolism. Nelsons favorite steroid is primo but he does like sust, d-bol,winny and anavar. He will not use or recommend vet steroids like EQ or tren. He does not recommend nandrolone.
Nelson believes three weeks will offers the best trade off between gains and sides. He thinks two weeks "on" is not quite enough time "on"
His favorite combo's are sust/d-bol or primo/anavar.
Here is an example of Nelsons three weeker.
WEEK ONE
DAY ONE sust 250 mg, day 3 primo 100mg, day 5 primo 100mg, day 7 primo 100mg. 25 of d-bol in divided doses per day.
WEEK TWO
Test cyp or enanthate 100mg, day 10 primo 100mg and day 12 primo 100mg, day 14 primo 100mg. 25 of winny per day
WEEK THREE
day 16 primo 100, day 18 primo 100, day 20 primo 100 and day 22 primo 100 and also anavar 25 per day
Notice how the cycle uses weaker orals as the weeks go on and the non aromatizable and weker primo . This is to limit inhibition to some degree AND also to limit water gain for good post cycle lean tissue realization
WEEK FOUR ...OPTIONAL
25 of proviron for 5 days and only in the am. This is to help with sex drive, prevent estrogen back lash and act as a mild form of a taper. 25 mg only done in the am is not very inhibitory. I like its ability to ward off estrogen rebound post cycle.
Nelson does not believe that Clomid is necessary after his cycles and may actually cause harm in some men.
The above is a complicated cycle that is not cheap but Nelson thinks it is the ultimate short cycle. Similar but cheaper short cycle s can be based on the MONTANA METHOD.
IN COMES BILL ROBERTS!!!
Now Bill Roberts has been preaching short cycles for some time know, but not as long as Nelson. He says that he was taught his method but a Greek physicain that trains athletes in Europe. It is strange that he never even mentions Nelson and his method and this tells me that he may have stolen the idea from Nelson in the first place.
Anyway Roberts recommends higher doses of strickly short acting injectables and powerful orals. Front loading injectables is recommended.
Roberts is a big believer in Clomid post cycle. He also believes in using HCG if cycles are long or less than 4 weeks are taken between repeated two week cycles ,so as to prevent testicular shrinkage and the resulting poor HPTA recovery.
Roberts believes that after two weeks the pituitary becomes inhibited and not just the testes and hypothalamus and thus he recommends 14 days "on" as the limit IF you are striving for very rapid HPTA recovery.
I have used the "Roberts" cycles with good success as have many others including a few of my close friends but I plan on trying Nelsons method soon.
ROBERTS EXAMPLES
Day one, tren front loaded at 150mg and then tren 75 mg per day through day 12.
Dbol 50 mg per day in divided doses through day 14.
Clomid therapy starting day 15 and for 4 weeks or three weeks if Clomid was used as an anti estrogen during the "on" weeks. He will also use estrogen inhibitors if aromatization is expected to be high.
Second example for the larger man...
Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100-150mg per day for 11 days. Tren 150mg per day on day one and then 50-75 per day for 12 days, winstrol 50 mg per day for 14 days.
Other combo's include Tren/winny., test/d-bol winny., Tren/winny /d-bol....etc etc..
Notice that no long acting injectable is used. This is done to allow for a very rapid post cycle elimination of androgens so as to prevent additional lengthening of the cycle. This is Key point in the Roberts two weeker because he believes that any time "on" past two weeks will not allow for the most rapid HPTA recovery. He goes so far as to say that recovery after three week "on" is not especially quicker than recover after 8 weeks "on"
Roberts sites many examples of 7-10 plus pounds kept from his two weekers.
The man that is above his natural max weight (ie: 5'9-10 " and a leanish 190) cannot expect to gains 10 pounds in two weeks but 5 pounds in not uncommon.
NOTE>>> Both Roberts and Montana recommend at least 4 weeks off between these cycles. Roberts does say that two weeks off can be okay, but if repeated two weekers are done then HCG should be used during the cycle at 500iu's per day to prevent testicular shrinkage over the months.
So try short cycles if you are really concerned about your health and want to minimize the risks of steroid use, yet still wish to use steroids , and if you want to keep a higher percentage of your gains from a cycle.
Good luck and I hope this clears a few things up
RG
17/08/2018 1:35 pm
The psychological impact of long-cycles, for some, is also a consideration which may lend a greater impulse toward shorter spans of use.
17/08/2018 2:32 pm
They seem to be more popular among European Bobybuilders. The last time i read something by Bill Roberts, it seemed he concluded that he would not recommend any cycles that were any shorter than four weeks.
The arsenal of quality AAS's shortens as well and it is already limited and especially if you disqualify Eq.
I like the concept of short cycles but maybe the final verdict is not in as of yet. The other comment i hear by people having tried these is they cannot keep the gains but that is anecdotal.
Topic starter
17/08/2018 3:15 pm
They seem to be more popular among European Bobybuilders. The last time i read something by Bill Roberts, it seemed he concluded that he would not recommend any cycles that were any shorter than four weeks.The arsenal of quality AAS's shortens as well and it is already limited and especially if you disqualify Eq.
I like the concept of short cycles but maybe the final verdict is not in as of yet. The other comment i hear by people having tried these is they cannot keep the gains but that is anecdotal.
Bro you have got it backwards...gains from short cycles are better kept for two reason....#1. HPTA recovery is usually better post short cycle and #2. The body seems better able to hang onto and adapt to smaller gains at a time than very large gains in a few months.
RG
17/08/2018 3:52 pm
I agree with you. In theory the short cycles should be better all the way around, including recovery gains and so on. I like the idea. I asked this same question before (i guess you have to consider the source) and every person jumped in and said no gains, waste of time, and so on. I am with you on trying to find better methods and methods other than what is popular. I guess i will have to try it myself. I just have not heard from enough people that can say firsthand their experience.
17/08/2018 4:29 pm
Perhaps some may not view the so-called "Pro-Hormones" as Steroids, or even anything worthwhile (and they are, certain ones, to an extent), many enough users have had great success with two-week cycles.
Granted, though, the gains not as great as would they have been were the span stretched longer, but, whatever came, was mostly kept.
So in the "real world", at least with the 1-Test/4-Diol type products, most have been more than happy with such short cycles. Should definitely be no different with Tren et al.
EDIT:
Also, have to consider the Steroidal ester in question. You're not doing a two-week cycle if you use Sust. It's also harder, even with a shorter-acting ester, to maintain consistent blood-levels; if you intend a two-weeker, have to make certain that the androgen is still not to be circulated, even in negligible amounts, relative to an amount needed for anabolism, past your time of end.
Orals and/or topicals are far easier for such a purpose as this. A Tren/Test topical should be splendid.
17/08/2018 5:03 pm
The esthers definitely factor into the equation and here are the ones Roberts mentions: Winny Injectable, Trenbolone Acetate, D-Bol and doens't he use Andriol some way (capsule form of Testosterone).
And how do you feel about leaving Deca and Eq. out of the game???
Topic starter
17/08/2018 5:40 pm
You can still use longer acting esters for a three week cycle because even sust is only anabolic for about two weeks..but ideally the short esters are best....and a moderate dose of a long acting roid like primo in week three will be somewhat anabolic yet not very suppressive.
I think it would be best to get blood levels up very quickly with front loads of fast acting injectables though...also ,when one stops the hormone will drop off rapidly as well ,allowing for a potentially quicker recovery.
RG
17/08/2018 6:13 pm
I want to hear from more Bro's with 2 week cycle experience. I hope small gains (5-10 lbs) with little to no sides & quick recovery are possible.
Topic starter
17/08/2018 6:48 pm
I think that short cycles are perfect for the frustrated natural trainee that just wants to get to his natural potential and then maintain it with smart natural training. It's a hell of a lot easier to maintain your limit than to get there in the first place especially if you have a demanding job and kids at home etc.
Indeed 5-10 pounds in a few weeks is possible and most will be kept IF you continue to train in a natural way(not like the glossy magazines tell you) and are not yet at your natural maximum lean size.
RG
17/08/2018 7:32 pm
Realgains How many 2weekers have you done & what did you use.
Topic starter
17/08/2018 8:17 pm
Realgains How many 2weekers have you done & what did you use.
I have done 6 two weekers and a couple of cycles that were 3-4 weeks long.
I have always used fast acting and powerful gear. Tren/d-bol is my preference. I have also done test prop/tren., test prop/tren/winstrol and tren/winstrol.
Doses were what I consider somewhat high but what others consider moderate. ie: tren at 75 per day and d-bol at 30-50 per day and test prop at 100 per day and tren at 50-75 per day. I also front loaded the injectables with a double dose of tren on day one and 300 or test prop on day one.
I plan on doing a cycle like Nelson advocates or at least like I have done but stretching it out to three weeks. I think he is right when he says that three weeks would give better gains without significanly increasing recover time and sides over a two weeker...I always have felt slightly rushed on a two weeker even though I have gotten decent results.
I am finished with long cycles for good. I am tired of the F-ing acne, being easily "winded", the terribly stiff lower back even without aromatizing gear and the general shitty unhealthy sluggish tired feeling I get after about week 4 of a long cycle.
Last Summer was an eye opener for me.....I have always been fairly good at running and hiking etc but I had a very hard time keeping up to my brother-in-law on a hike while on a long cycle.
Long cycles definately mess with your aerobic capacity ,WITHOUT A DOUBT!...not to mention that my calves were F-ing killing me within 5 minutes of a hill climb (PUMP!!!and PAIN!)
Besides I am almost 41 and its time to taper off gear.
RG Last edited by Realgains on 02-01-2003 at 11:32 PM
18/08/2018 4:51 am
Have to put an eye toward, as well, this: even if the anabolic effects subside, any lingering amount far enough above normal-high levels could still be suppressive.
But, as said, ideally, if you're to do such a thing, levels should drop almost immediately after cessation.
Let me find the article by Bill Roberts as it deals with two-weekers, and the HPTA effects (for whoever hasn't seen what RG is speaking about):
quote:
Where AAS doses are sufficient for good gains, an interesting pattern is seen. For the first two weeks of the cycle, only the hypothalamus is inhibited, and it produces much less LHRH as a result of the high levels of sex hormones it senses.
The pituitary is not inhibited at all: in fact, it is actually sensitized, and will respond to LHRH (if any is provided) even moreso than normally.
After two weeks however, the pituitary also becomes inhibited, and even if LHRH is provided, the pituitary will produce little or no LH. This then is a deeper type of inhibition. After this point, there seems to be no definite further "switching point" where inhibition again becomes deeper and harder to reverse.
As a general rule, I would say that there seems to be little difference between using AAS for 3 weeks vs. 8 weeks: recovery is about the same either way.
Topic starter
18/08/2018 5:27 am
Yes the anabolic affect may be gone but their may still be enough hormone floating around to cause suppression to some degree.
Thats why I think it is best to use primo if you are going to use a long acting ester because this stuff can provide some gains and be very easy on the HPTA.
An alternative would be to use only a couple shots of say Test Cyp in the first week and then no more test but continue with the orals.
ie: 500 of test cyp on day one and then 250 on day 4 then stop the test.....then continue with an oral for three weeks.
If you were to do a two weeker then do only a single shot of test cyp at 500-750 on day one and then continue with the oral through day 14.
I do, however, think it is best to use short acting injectables in a short cycle, save perhaps primo due to its mildness on HPTA.
RG
Topic starter
18/08/2018 6:10 am
OH...I would like to make something perfectly clear in regard to the difference between a Montana approach and a Roberts approach.
Montana cycles are milder than a Roberts cycle as he is trying to avoid as much suppression as possible, yet provide some gains, of about 5 pounds kept in three weeks. One reason Nelson does this is because he hates clomid. Another reason is because he thinks a higher percentage of gains will be kept if total suppression is avoided during a cycle.
Roberts is not trying to avoid suppression at all DURING the cycle and hopes that HPTA recover will be very rapid, with Clomid, since his cycle is only 14 days long...on day 15 all suppressive levels of hormones are gone. Roberts is also shooting for a slightly higher gain kept than Montana.
Roberts thinks that pituitary suppression takes a little more than 14 days, no matter how suppressed one was during the two weeks "on'. Where he gets this notion from I don't know as he has never posted any study to back this up. I am not saying he is a bullshitter, and in fact he may be right, but I wish he would post something to back that up.
Nelson likes the following combo's as well as what I mentioned above as the ideal Monatan cycle.....Primo/ D-bol and test/Anavar.
He does not like test/d-bol or any form of nandrolone, including phenylprop, due to their suppressive natures.
RG
Page 1 / 4
Next