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Thermogenics and nutrient absorption  

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Piston
(@piston)
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07/06/2020 11:31 am  

Naturally, thermogenics in general will increase body temperature causing increase calorie usage. How does this affect nutrient utilization? I guess my idea is whether there could be a use for something like ephedrine to accelerate recovery through its stimulation. I am not really phrasing this well, and perhaps that is why I can't find any info -- still, I am interested in others thoughts.


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pillsbury
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07/06/2020 11:58 am  

just fyi, yohimbe will cause spike in insulin (ephedrine will not) for up to four hours after taking. best to stay away from any carb while taking if thats your thing


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jboldman
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07/06/2020 12:21 pm  

well, i think following along the lines of Piston's question, if one were to take yohimbe during exercise in a fasted or low carb state and then consume carbs immediately afterwards, that insulin spike could assist recovery driving the carbs into the muscles. the question would be whether you could exercise on yohimbe. you might be able to just take the yohimbe immediately afterwards along with carbs, very intersting line of thought.


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pillsbury
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07/06/2020 12:42 pm  

unfortunately i dont believe you can spike insulin post training. thats right, i said it. catecholamines my friend will blunt insulin. even in presence of yohimbe. there is a lot of research showing this. seems best to spike insulin pre train. have been doing it for a short while, seems much more effective. post aminos or shortest peptides seem most effective immediate post.
sorry to hijack thread


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pillsbury
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07/06/2020 1:05 pm  

also...
further evidence shows that even yohimbe or ephedrine before workout will not help fat release for training, or to a worthwhile degree (benefits vs negatives; compared to how much amino breakdown vs fat use).
while yohimbe targets the alpha-adrenergic receptors i dont think its very effecient at higher intensities esp without glucose/glycogen

im sure i made this way too complicated.
so carb before yay, no carb before/keto nay!


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Bananaman
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07/06/2020 1:32 pm  

I thought I'd add this reference before cycle-ist does! :

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conte...rt/01121.2007v1

(shows cafeinne boosts glycogen storage post workout)


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Piston
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07/06/2020 2:02 pm  

Very interesting article. Is there something about the chemical caffeine or is it the stimulation? If the caffeine were to be ingested at necessary doses prior to workout, would it be necessary to re-dose post workout or would the result be the same/ blunted by some other chemical interaction? Is the key here a cardio stimulant?


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pillsbury
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07/06/2020 2:30 pm  
Posted by: Bananaman
I thought I'd add this reference before cycle-ist does! :

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/short/01121.2007v 1" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conte...rt/01121.2007v1

(shows cafeinne boosts glycogen storage post workout)

glycogen replenishment is very important for endurance athletes; not so much for those training for strength or size. weight training does not require nearly the amount of stored energy that say racing does. also while caffeine and many other things can boost glycogen storage i feel they can not create insulin spike which seemed to be theory behind carb intake pwo for weight training .


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Piston
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07/06/2020 2:51 pm  

I understand arguments for and against nutrient timing on an elementary level, and I admit to being new to the complexity of insulin post workout -- still, I don't see how glycogen replenishment would not be the first step in recovery for a strength athlete whether oly or power.


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pillsbury
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07/06/2020 3:19 pm  

with new evidence protein synthesis is actually heightened by protein or aminos alone. this is immediately after as catecholamines are still so high.
ultimately thats what the goal was; spike in insulin and increase protein synthesis.
seems cat levels taper off within hour after training so you could then eat carbs if you choose. choose not and you will be fine also as you will have the following day to replenish glycogen levels, specifically if you start a few hours before training and continue during. i think people use much less energy than they think.
not to say you should not eat carbs, just saying that immediate pwo is not best time for strength athlete


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Seabiscuit Hogg
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07/06/2020 3:36 pm  
Posted by: Piston
I understand arguments for and against nutrient timing on an elementary level, and I admit to being new to the complexity of insulin post workout -- still, I don't see how glycogen replenishment would not be the first step in recovery for a strength athlete whether oly or power.

Replenishing glocogen is the reason I've always done a fast carb drink pwo. However, insulin is anabolic so the preworkout carb idea may have some merit. Glycogen stores are important for strength training not only for fuel but also bio-mechanics. You can lift more weight when glocogen isn't depleted. With preworkout carbs not as much glocogen will be used. Anyway, it's an interesting theory.

Seabiscuit Hogg is a fictious internet character. It is not recommended that you receive medical advice from fictious internet characters.

SBH :)


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pillsbury
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07/06/2020 3:57 pm  

Not just theory but fact. Try it out, you will be pleased.


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Seabiscuit Hogg
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07/06/2020 4:13 pm  

Don't worry I like to experiment. If it works well.I'll call it fact too.

Seabiscuit Hogg is a fictious internet character. It is not recommended that you receive medical advice from fictious internet characters.

SBH :)


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Bananaman
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07/06/2020 4:33 pm  
Posted by: pillsbury
with new evidence protein synthesis is actually heightened by protein or aminos alone. this is immediately after as catecholamines are still so high.
ultimately thats what the goal was; spike in insulin and increase protein synthesis.
seems cat levels taper off within hour after training so you could then eat carbs if you choose. choose not and you will be fine also as you will have the following day to replenish glycogen levels, specifically if you start a few hours before training and continue during. i think people use much less energy than they think.
not to say you should not eat carbs, just saying that immediate pwo is not best time for strength athlete

yes, its a different story for the endurance guys- the first 30 mins after exercise is when most glycogen is absorbed, if we miss this window then you never fully load you muscles up for the next session. There is a simplified version of a famous graph showing this data in this link:

http://www.winsfordasc.co.uk/Nutrition.ht m" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> http://www.winsfordasc.co.uk/Nutrition.htm


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pillsbury
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07/06/2020 4:58 pm  

its a very nice graph. i always wondered how on the tour for example, how you guys get enough food/kal in a day. if your riding for 5 or 6 hours and you are sleeping even 6 hours then half your day is gone.


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