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Estrogen Blockers And Water Retention


Realgains
(@realgains)
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Do estrogen blockers like nolva and clomid have ANY effect in reducing water retention while "on"?

Thanx
RG


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Nandi
(@nandi)
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Most people claim they do, but I have not seen any research to support that. In fact as I mentioned to you those drugs are really SERMS: estrogenic in some tissues and antiestrogenic in others. I did a little research on the two mechanisms whereby estrogen induces water retention (increases in antidiuretic hormone, or AVP, and aldosterone) and discovered that for AVP, tamoxifen is actually an agonist, just like estrogen, so should enhance water retention by that route:

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ll/141/11/4056

I haven't found any studies on nolva/Clomid and the renin-aldosterone system yet.

Updated Note: Here is one showing no effect on renin and sodium excretion with tamoxifen. So the increase in AVP should lead to water retention from nolva since there is no effect on the renin-aldosterone system:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

I would say based on what I've seen of the research, you are better off sticking with an aromatase inhibitor to help fend off estrogen related bloating.


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Nandi
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This is particularly interesting: a non-genomic mechanism whereby estrogen increases water retention in female rodents but not males. I wasn't aware of that pathway. Again, tamoxifen had no effect:

However, in the presence of the nuclear oestrogen receptor antagonist tamoxifen (10 microM), E2 still produced an inhibition of Cl- secretion...We conclude that E2 inhibits colonic Cl- secretion via a non-genomic pathway that involves intracellular Ca2+ and PKC. It is possible that this gender-specific mechanism contributes to the salt and water retention associated with high E2 states.

The Journal of Physiology - Wiley Online Library


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SWALE
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Nandi--great stuff!

Let's not forget that androgenic stimulation at the kidneys result in increased sodium retention, and therefore water weight gain, too.

ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.


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Nandi
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Good point, SWALE. We have touched on this a bit.

It certainly does not hurt to reemphasize the point. People so often speak of "estrogen related" water retention that they do either forget or are not aware that androgens can be culprits here to, as can certain progestins. Drugs like deca that have both androgenic and progestigenic properties are pretty notorius for causing water retention, yet Deca aromatizes only slightly and induces an overall drop in E levels when it is taken.


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Realgains
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Posted by: SWALE
Nandi--great stuff!

Let's not forget that androgenic stimulation at the kidneys result in increased sodium retention, and therefore water weight gain, too.

My wife held quite a bit of water weight on 20 of Anavar and we all know that Var doesn't aromatize. Great gains BTW and very few sides aside from a few zits...even her liver panel was 100% normal after 10 weeks! Got to love anavar!

RG


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SWALE
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When I put guys on just 100mg of Upjohn per week I regularly field emails from them asking why they put on 5lbs in the first week (could have something to do with the fact I usually frontload them). I tell them it will dissipate, and it does, as their body's readjust. This is different, though, from the few who are hypersensitive with respect to estrogen.

ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.


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SteveDFW
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Posted by: SWALE
When I put guys on just 100mg of Upjohn per week I regularly field emails from them asking why they put on 5lbs in the first week (could have something to do with the fact I usually frontload them). I tell them it will dissipate, and it does, as their body's readjust. This is different, though, from the few who are hypersensitive with respect to estrogen.

How much do you frontload?


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SWALE
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Just twice the usual weekly dose. I want my guys to start feeling better as soon a spossible. Also, as you would imagine, they are quite anxious to get going.

ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.


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JohnnyB
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Posted by: SWALE
Just twice the usual weekly dose. I want my guys to start feeling better as soon a spossible. Also, as you would imagine, they are quite anxious to get going.

Amen

JohnnyB


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