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Doping for masters athletes


Realgains
(@realgains)
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How about this "light" doping program for guys(and ladies) over 30 and especially us old guys over 40 Ladies advice at the end of the thread.

Do hormone replacement therapy for your health, to slow and even reverse aging, and to kick some young ass on the bike he he he.
Every year there are more and more doctors taking HRT seriously and more and more specialize in HRT. I am convinced that keeping youthful hormone levels prevents disease, slow and sometimes reverses aging, and just makes you feel great and preform better in athletics/general exercise.

Now is all this HRT doping...it's just HRT right. Yes it is doping(as is something as simple as caffeine use to spare muscle glycogen) but only IF you compete...if you don't then I would call it HRT for health reasons only.

But I like what twice busted Eddy Mercyx said....."There is doping and then there is doping"

Some of my clients are on HRT and all have responded very well in their training and just feel great. It's fun for me to be able to give these men youthful training plans and to see them eat it up.

HGH

HGH......if you are over 30 you need to get your IGF-1 level checked.HGH is the first hormone to decline with age. The way you test it is to measure IGF-1 levels. IGF-1 is made in the liver when HGH makes the pass through the liver.

1-2 iu's per day of HGH will bring most men's IGF-1 levels into the youthful range. Your energy level will go up, fat loss ALWAYS happens, your mood usually betters, recovery is better so you can train harder and get better quickly and to a higher level, Testosterone levels usually increase helping sex drive and recovery.
If you are over 60 then you'll increased muscular strength from this low dose, unless you have been pumping iron for years and in that case you will need a much bigger dose.

Best to take the stuff in the am on an empty stomach and 45 minutes before eating to avoid insulin resistance issues(but at that low dose it shouldn't be much on an issue). Also, you want to keep as much of your own HGH production going as possible. This happens mainly at night so inhibitory negative feedback can be lessened by taking your HGH in the am.

It's best to take 1-2 days off per week so as to preserve as much of your own natural HGH release as possible(to prevent total HGH shutdown via the negative feedback loop with HGH/IGF-1)

Sermorelin
I have just added info on Sermorelin to this post.

Sermorelin is a synthetic version of growth hormone releasing hormone(GHRH) that causes release of growth hormone from the pituitary gland.
Use of Sermorelin is said to increase HGH/IGF-1 levels without any inhibitory affect on ones own HGH release. *Exogenous HGH use is thought to at least partially reduce ones own HGH release via negative feedback loop....as follows>>>
Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) produced by the hypothalamus stimulates HGH secretion. HGH, and IGF-1 create a negative feedback loop, meaning when their levels are high; it blunts release of GHRH, which in turn blunts the release of more HGH.....so if you take HGH exogenously you are going to blunt the release of at least some of your own HGH. This can be combated in part by taking the HGH in the am(not at night when HGH is released) and by taking 1-2 days off the HGH per week.

There has been mixed reviews about the effectiveness of Sermorelin. I talked to one HRT doc that prefers HGH.
BUT....the stuff makes sense to me and I will be doing more research on it.

Testosterone

Good T levels are critical for health, recovery, positive mood, general energy levels and sex drive.

Usually(not always)testosterone is good even into your 60's in many men. However, with hard training it WILL drop and the older you get the more this becomes evident. You want a T of at least 400ng/dl for optimal health, sex drive and recovery ability....actually 800 is better.
There are many ways to increase T but one of the easiest ways is to take Novedex XT which is available at a health food store. It actually works! It works as a mild aromatase inhibitor. That is, it decreases circulating estrogen and this lessens the inhibitory affect on the hypothalamus. Thus the hypothalmus will put out more gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH)and this will cause the pituitary to release more LH(luetinizing hormone) and this hormone will bang on the testicular door causing an increase in free and total Testosterone.

I have gotten a 1000ng/dl T from this...which is right at the very top of "high normal" for a young male(my normal is about 590, the same as it was at 25) Others have gotten the same or better results. NOBODY that I know has not gotten a good response.

Now it does not increase T to the point that it would cause a drop in good cholesterol(hdl), like having a T much higher does. Nor does DHT(testosterone metabolite) increase much at all....so you don't have to worry about prostate issues or hair loss.

I would still get a baseline hdl done though and if you find that your hdl drops then jump on regular old nicacin(not non flush niacin) at 500mg three times a day to increase hdl. Yes it will cause an itchy flush but you get used to that and the intensity of the flush reduces in a few weeks.
Alternatively you can ask you doctor for time released niacin via prescription.

Another way you can increase your T is to take exogenous testosterone. 5 grams a day of Androgel will get most men a 650 testosterone...about mid to mid high normal.
As little as 75 mg per week of injectable testosterone will give most me the same or better. Top dose for testosterone for HRT reasons is 150mg per week....but you have to be careful because 150mg can bring most guys T well above 1800ng/dl and well out of HRT range. I would not go above 1500ng/dl for HRT and health reasons.

If you do not go above 1200-1500ng/dl your T to epi-T ratio will not be above 4 to 1.

NOTE: exogenous T use will shut down your hpothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis pronto. That means you hypothalmus will sense that you have plenty of testosterone and estrogen(via aromatization of T) and it will not be putting of GnRH and thus the pituitary will not be putting out LH and thus the testes will not be making testosterone. This will cause your testes to shrink...and eventually to smaller than grapes. You can keep your testes size normal by using a little HCG(human chorionic gonadotropin). This hormone mimics LH and will keep your testes from shrinking...your testes will work and will be putting out T so you can reduce exogenous T use. In fact HCG alone can be used for HRT for testosterone. Do not take more than 500iu's every other day sub Q though.

The best way to use HCG with test(IM) replacement is to do a low dose of testosterone injection(80-100mg per week) in a long acting ester such as cypionate or enanthate and then on day 5 and 6 do 250 iu's of HCG. The test is given deep IM (intramuscularly) and the HCG is given in the skin sub cutaneously.
If you use androgel then just do the gel daily at 5 grams(some may need 7.5 grams) and then the HCG a couple days per week...doesn't matter which days.

You won't have to worry about using a selective estrogen receptor modular(SERM), like Tamoxifen, to block estrogen at the breast with a T of 1200-1500ng/dl or less but if you go above this then you could be in trouble might develop some breast tissue if you don;t use a SERM or at least an aromatase inhibitor.
Also, if you go above about 1500ng/dl you are going to gain some water weight from the aromatization of T to estrogen. Then your watts per kilo will drop as will your VO2 max, and you can get crippling low back pumps that will literally stop you could on a climb from the low back muscle pump. So don't go above 1200- 1500ng/dl and you won't get a shitty hdl cholesterol and you won't need to take an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex to reduce circulating estrogen.

Most HRT docs don't want you to go higher than 800-1200ng/dl anyway. They do a lot of subjective "asking" too on how you feel, energy level, sex drive etc etc. They also keep an eye on estrogen, which should be no higher than mid normal, and DHT and hdl cholesterol etc etc.

I think 700-1000 is plenty for health reasons...maybe a tad more for optimal recovery reasons but I would not be above 1200 long term.

As an aside......pro cyclist routinely use testosterone gel patches on the testes for a few hours a day in stage racing. Stage racing is murder on T levels. We don't really know why hard racing and training drops T but we now know that it happens at the hypothalmic/Pituitary level(GnRH and LH) and not at the testicular level.

My guess is that the reason Landis's T to epi T ratio was so screwed up is that he forgot to take his patch off after 4-5 hours.

*Do not use any SERM(clomid, Tamoxifen,toremifene and more) or prescription aromatase inhibitor(arimidex, Letrozole etc) , or HCG if tested.
These drugs are sometimes used in HRT but they are all banned in sport. Novedex XT is not banned....all the ingredients are found in foods.
But then again very very few amateur races have any testing at all.

I recommend that you get followed by an HRT doctor.
The best one I know of is Dr. John at www.allthingsmale.com

You can get your T tested without a docs script at
http://www.healthcheckusa.com/

Ladies

Ladies can use the same amount of HGH and Sermorelin

Don't use an aromatase inhibitor like Novedex XT.

For those that are in menopause there is no need to be.....you can get natural compounded creams that will give you youthful levels of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone. Save your bone mass, sex drive, skin and muscle tone and energy levels by getting the heck out of menopause.
NOTE: Don't use Premarin because it is toxic...it is made from pregnant hoses urine is not bioidentical to human estrogen.
Human estrogen consists of estriol (60-80%), estrone (10-20%), and estradiol (10-20%). Horse estrogen by contrast contains primarily only one human estrogen, estrone (75-80%), plus several other estrogens found ONLY in horses..NOT A GOOD THING!

If your T level is 30ng/dl or less you will not be having much sex drive at all, energy levels will be low, muscle tone suffers, mood etc etc.
I recommend that if that is you then go to an HRT doc and get bioidentical T gel compounded up to get your T at least 60ng/dl. my wife does best at about 80. Top level for a female is about 100ng/dl .
Yes, my wife is on T gel for ladies and it has made a big difference.

NOTE: Some young ladies have a poor T level and especially after giving birth. After menopause ALL ladies have a poor T level.

Cheers

RG


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MaxWatts
(@maxwatts)
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This should be a sticky. Great contribution to the board as always!


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alarick
(@alarick)
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How long HRT cycle on T/hgh can be? And whats period "off cycle" need?


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Realgains
(@realgains)
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Topic starter  
Posted by: alarick
How long HRT cycle on T/hgh can be? And whats period "off cycle" need?

 

HRT is suppose to be forever.....most guys don't need T replacement until they are in their 50's and some don't need it until they are well into 60's...BUT some guys need it sooner than their 50's. You have to get your T level checked before deciding on T replacement therapy.

Believe it or not there are more young females that need testosterone HRT than males. Lots of ladies suffer from low T and especially after having kids. At Menopause T drops a lot and thus sex drive.....and thus males looking for younger women. Men need sex ...females can be just fine without sex It's the truth.

For HGH it's different...I think everyone over 40 should be on it and I plan to be on an HRT dose soon. Even guys in their 30's can benefit from HGH at hormone replacement dose in my opinion.

I am convinced that major hormone decline is a very big reason for aging.


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alarick
(@alarick)
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Thanks!


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boeing747
(@boeing747)
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Is `arimidex```the same as `arimatest``, just a different brand name?


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KingMassimo
(@kingmassimo)
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Check the generic name. Arimidex is anastrazole.


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kataking
(@kataking)
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Posts: 28
 

RG,
Have you any experience with Sermorelin? I follow Dr J's board and seems most if not all of his guys on GH have switched over.

Dr. Chrisler is giving a talk on Sermorelin at the A4M National convention in December so he isnt giving out a bunch of Information before then.


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robq1
(@robq1)
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As a rider who does get tested & suffers from fatigue, I am / was seriously considering Novadex XT as it seems to fit the bill for what I need. T levels checked scientificly with my 'wood-o meter' every morning even with new g-friend I am taking 2 weeks to completely recover from a important event..

Did some internet research and found this site .
http://66.102.9.104/translate_c?hl=...ct_aJAui9bg3g#2

www.ergogenics.org

Its dutch translated & not sure of the motavation behind the site...language barrier. But it seems to hint.. it is contaminated with steriods.
"
When the researchers took urine samples of several athletes unknown signals. Het ging om metabolieten van de anti-oestrogene steroďden 6-oxo-androstenedione en ATD . It went to metabolites of the anti-estrogenic steroids 6-oxo-androstenedione and ATD. "

Novadex XT is also banned on some far fetched ' natural BB sites'
Though the reason for this may be that the BB orginasition has falen out with the makers of Novadex XT.

I may hold off untill I hear your mach valued opinion,

Rob


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Realgains
(@realgains)
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Topic starter  
Posted by: kataking
RG,
Have you any experience with Sermorelin? I follow Dr J's board and seems most if not all of his guys on GH have switched over.

I have no experience with Sermorelin but I have heard mixed reviews about it. It sounds very good "on paper" though. JBoldman said that one fellow he knows didn't get good results in IGF-1 release using Sermorelin. I talked to one hormone replaGRWOXXLent doc and she said that there is no need for Sermorelin if because if the HGH dose is correct you will have no problems from it.

Sermorelin is HGH stimulating hormone for those that don't know. It makes your pituitary put out more HGH....so you don't shut down any of your own natural HGH release by taking it like you do, at least to some degree, with exogenous HGH use.

I do know that it is not easy to get and it isn't cheap. Generic HGH from China is cheap..very cheap.. and it is real.

Send us the link to Dr. J's board....you mean Dr John Crisler?

Can you post comments form that board on this thread...comments in which guys tell their IGF-1 level before Sermorelin and after Sermorelin.

Be nice to know the dose needed.

Be nice to know the cost too.

Thanx bro

RG


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janqo
(@janqo)
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As a proper master rider I always welcome these RG protocols.Cheers for that RG.
Just wonder whether you can more specify what is it mean when saying: "Generic HGH from China is cheap..very cheap.."
Thanks
J


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Realgains
(@realgains)
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Topic starter  
Posted by: janqo
As a proper master rider I always welcome these RG protocols.Cheers for that RG.
Just wonder whether you can more specify what is it mean when saying: "Generic HGH from China is cheap..very cheap.."
Thanks
J

The generic name is simply the chemical name. The trade name or brand name is a name a company gives to a medication/drug/hormone etc etc so they can sell it under "their" control.

ie: the generic name for HGH is somatropin but there are many trade names such as.....Genotropin, Humatrope, Norditropin, Nutropin, Saizen, Serostim.

A famous Chinese brand is Jintropin....and it's pretty cheap... but you can't get it legally in the USA.

You also cannot legally ship any generic HGH into the USA from China.

RG


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Alan_ap
(@alan_ap)
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Hey RG, awesome post as always - very informative for us Masters riders.

Just thought I'd add my 0.02$

I'm 31 and race masters XC
67kg
330w FTP (at base 41% crit)

I'm currently on the plan listed below - all info is on other posts - mainly RG's but thought I'd summarise my situation here as it's relevent.

Have been using 125mg of sust 250 every week although I am now changing that to around 65mg every 4th day to keep levels a little more consistent. Just tested and hitting right on 1100ng/dl. Sweet! Next time will get T:E ratio tested as wel but I'd expect to be slightly below 4:1 at 1100ng/dl. No bloating or water weight gain at this dose and recovery is good...feeling good. I am taking 2 x Nov XT ED which is probably helping to keep water weight gain away.

Before that, I was taking Nov XT 3 x PD and that took me from 300ng/dl up to 600ng/dl. Not bad considering you have no worries on getting sprung in a test if only on Nov XT.

My plan for the winter, where my training is hard is to continue with exogenous T, along with 250iu HCG EOD because there are no races I'll be tested at.

*

Just a question on testing protocol RG

You say don't use HCG or a SERM if tested. What sort of time does HGC need to clear the system if udergoing a test is a possibility? i.e could you quit using it a week or 2 weeks out from a race and just continue on the testoseterone provided you know your under the 4:1 T:E ratio?

Also, what is the situation regarding the above for HGH? I'm under the impression most basic tests wont pick up HCG but I'm not sure on that. Never used it, just wondering


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kataking
(@kataking)
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Posted by: Realgains

Can you post comments form that board on this thread...comments in which guys tell their IGF-1 level before Sermorelin and after Sermorelin.

Be nice to know the dose needed.

Be nice to know the cost too.

Thanx bro

RG

Some comments from the board http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum /" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/ :
1. Most HRT patients on that board report that they preferred actual HGH over sermorelin.
2. Its usually 6 weeks before a raise in IGF-1 is seen.
3. Sleep is equal to or better than when on HGH
4. Untreated Hypothyroid can jeopardize response to sermorelin (Dr. made this comment)
5. Supplementing with DHEA is a must

Dose:
starting dose originally 200mcg. Dr raised starting dose to 250mcg after first round of tests. Many end up at 300-400mcg.

cost:
$7.50 day at 200mcg. $15.00 at 400mcg

IGF-1 response:
1. 122 to 216
2. 160 to 173
3. 80 to 130
These where at 200-250mcg. have not seen any results from higher dose guys yet. Most of these guys are 50+ and have many medical problems.
here is some more reading:
http://www.sermorelinacetate.com/Sermorelin-vs-rhGH-in-GHRT-by-Dr-Walker.pd f" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> http://www.sermorelinacetate.com/Se...y-Dr-Walker.pdf

In my opinion this stuff isnt going to do much for a healthy athlete. It might have possibilities for use after a long run of HGH to help get your own pituitary going faster.

Edited to add:
the Doctor also posted this on a thread:
---------------------------------
IMPORTANT point:

Achieving an IGF-1 of 250 with Sermorelin is as good as 350 seems to be with GH. This is a common story we are hearing from our patients with respect to subjective benefits. I've now heard several of the top docs say this.

We'll get into "why" as we go along.
-------------------------------
Dr. Chrisler is giving a talk on Sermorelin at the A4M National convention in DeGRWOXXLber so he isnt giving out a bunch of Information before then. Last edited by kataking on 08-20-2008 at 04:43 PM

Dr. Chrisler is giving a talk on Sermorelin at the A4M National convention in December so he isnt giving out a bunch of Information before then.


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Realgains
(@realgains)
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Topic starter  
Posted by: kataking
Some comments from the board http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum /" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/ :
1. Most HRT patients on that board report that they preferred actual HGH over sermorelin.
2. Its usually 6 weeks before a raise in IGF-1 is seen.
3. Sleep is equal to or better than when on HGH
4. Untreated Hypothyroid can jeopardize response to sermorelin (Dr. made this comment)
5. Supplementing with DHEA is a must

Dose:
starting dose originally 200mcg. Dr raised starting dose to 250mcg after first round of tests. Many end up at 300-400mcg.

cost:
$7.50 day at 200mcg. $15.00 at 400mcg

IGF-1 response:
1. 122 to 216
2. 160 to 173
3. 80 to 130
These where at 200-250mcg. have not seen any results from higher dose guys yet. Most of these guys are 50+ and have many medical problems.
here is some more reading:
http://www.sermorelinacetate.com/Sermorelin-vs-rhGH-in-GHRT-by-Dr-Walker.pd f" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> http://www.sermorelinacetate.com/Se...y-Dr-Walker.pdf

In my opinion this stuff isnt going to do much for a healthy athlete. It might have possibilities for use after a long run of HGH to help get your own pituitary going faster.

Edited to add:
the Doctor also posted this on a thread:
---------------------------------
IMPORTANT point:

Achieving an IGF-1 of 250 with Sermorelin is as good as 350 seems to be with GH. This is a common story we are hearing from our patients with respect to subjective benefits. I've now heard several of the top docs say this.

We'll get into "why" as we go along.
-------------------------------
Dr. Chrisler is giving a talk on Sermorelin at the A4M National convention in DeGRWOXXLber so he isnt giving out a bunch of Information before then.

Really good info bro!!! Keep it coming after Dr. J givces his talk!

RG


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