How to treat and prevent permanent SHUT DOWN!  

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Realgains
(@realgains)
Eminent Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 35
19/10/2018 6:56 am  

Okay bro's you CAN get permanently hypogonadal post cycle, with a low T level, even after good PCT. It doesn't happen to a lot of bros but it does happen and especially after being "on" a long time.

SO>>>>>lmit your time "on" to 12 weeks and then take 12 weeks off at least....after all you aren't making a living as a bobybuilder.

ALSO.>>>take HCG during your cycles to PREVENT testicular shrikage. This makes more sence than trying to grow them back to normal size after the cycle is over with HCG. See my post "How to keep gains from steroids"
ALSO>>>>>for goodness sake DO NOT try bridging as it DOES NOT WORK PEROID!!! Sure you will keep more gains post cycle with a mild bridge, like a once a day low dose oral, but you sure the heck are not going to fully recover HPTA function when you are taking any amount of exogenous androgen.

For you guys that are hypogonadal long after stopping PCT there is HOPE for recovery still.....don't jump onto the HRT bandwagan yet.

I for one will eventually do HRT but not until I am in my 60's I hope.

As for now my T level remains as it was when I was 21...550ng/dl. WHY....luck and gentics but also I have never done a cycle longer than 12 weeks and I always practised time on=time off. I also have used my fair share of HCG during cycles.

TRY THIS FIRST....... another round of SERMS(heavy)..clomid at 200mg on day one and nolva at 40...then do Clomid at 100 and nolva at 20 for a week...then do Clomid at 50 and nolva at 20 for three more week....then wait a week and get your T level checked again.

The SERMS Clomid and nolva will block estrogen at the hypothalamus ...which is suppressive in itself.....then hopefully more GnRH will be released from the hypothalamus to stimulate more LH release from the pituitary which in turn will tell your testes to start growing and putting out more T.

If that doesn't work then do the treatment below....start with #1 and then if that doesn't work try #2.

Inject the HCG sub Q into the lower belly fat.

Can T levels be restored in former anabolic steroid users?

The Study: Two hypogonadal former anabolic steroid users were studied. Normal levels of LH are >3.6 IU/L and Testosterone are 300—1000 ng/dl. Former anabolic steroid users often have suppressed levels of both.

The Results: Subject #1 is a 6', 206lb former user of 500—2000+ grams per week of anabolics. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=191ng/dl. This suject underwent a 32 day treatment of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of Clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg Nolvadex per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=5.2IU/L, Test=1072 ng/dl.

Subject #2 is a 5'10", 184lb male who used 400 mg per week of nandrolone. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=45ng/dl. This subject's 32 day treatment consisted of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of Clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. There was no change. He underwent another treatment consisting of 60 days of 5000 IU of HCG every 4 days for 4 injections, then 2500 IU every 4 days for 4 injections, 50 mg of Clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. Still, no change. For the next 32 days, this subject received 5000 IU of HCG every other day for 6 injections, then 2500 IU every other day for 6 injections given with 150 IU of menotropins, 50 mg of Clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex 2 times per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=9.8IU/L, Test=507 ng/dl.(20)

Comments: The authors of this paper have presented some very interesting data that the medical community needs to learn from. When dealing with former androgen users, there may be better ways to increase Testosterone than the standard patch treatment (which will only prolong the problem of decreased T production.) Hypogonadal former androgen users need a treatment, not a band-aid. If you need to jump start your Testosterone after an androgen cycle, this combination of HCG, Clomid, and nolvadex may be just what the doctor ordered. Now, trying to get him to order it is another story.

RG


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bjjfighter
(@bjjfighter)
Eminent Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 45
19/10/2018 7:44 am  

what if you cant use Clomid (in doses of more than 25mg / day) because the sides are so horrific and just say no to nolva because my vision gets damaged(and only partially recovers).
That leaves low dosage Clomid, letro or adex and hcg for pct...any suggestions?

also: what about bridging with hgh?

struggle---and shine on

Just because there is a goalie, doesnt mean you can't score.

Satisfaction is the death of desire.

Practice makes perfect; and I love 2 practice!!
-Dan Gable


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ready2explode
(@ready2explode)
Trusted Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 79
19/10/2018 8:29 am  

Realgains, post some documented proof that steroids can permanently shut you down.

"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
~W.B. Prescott

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
~Albert Einstein


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jboldman
(@jboldman)
Reputable Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 359
19/10/2018 9:22 am  

well there are certainly one or more studies out there that deal with fromer steroid users that are shutdown that were treated for that condition. I think it safe to say that the possibility exists.

jb


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Interficium
(@interficium)
Active Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 12
19/10/2018 10:21 am  
Posted by: ready2explode
Realgains, post some documented proof that steroids can permanently shut you down.

Search on pubmed. Lots of studies there.

I'm wondering if while on HRT the sperm count numbers can be mantained in a normal range, or does it means a guy will be infertile for life?


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Restless
(@restless)
Active Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 11
19/10/2018 10:57 am  
Posted by: Interficium
Search on pubmed. Lots of studies there.

I'm wondering if while on HRT the sperm count numbers can be mantained in a normal range, or does it means a guy will be infertile for life?

I don't have the studies at hand, but it has been shown that bodybuilders can mantain spermatogenesis while on supraphisiological doses of AAS just by using HCG alone. In the study I've seen 8 out 10 maintained fertility. With HMG it would be guaranteed I believe.


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ready2explode
(@ready2explode)
Trusted Member
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Posts: 79
19/10/2018 11:44 am  
Posted by: jboldman
well there are certainly one or more studies out there that deal with fromer steroid users that are shutdown that were treated for that condition. I think it safe to say that the possibility exists.

jb

This is my biggest fear...I'd like to read what he has found because I haven't been able to find anything on it.

"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
~W.B. Prescott

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
~Albert Einstein


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ready2explode
(@ready2explode)
Trusted Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 79
19/10/2018 12:42 pm  
Posted by: Restless
I don't have the studies at hand, but it has been shown that bodybuilders can mantain spermatogenesis while on supraphisiological doses of AAS just by using HCG alone. In the study I've seen 8 out 10 maintained fertility. With HMG it would be guaranteed I believe.

I believe I've read that administering test within "normal" levels shuts a much greater percentage of the population down than supraphysioligical doses...

"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
~W.B. Prescott

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
~Albert Einstein


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jboldman
(@jboldman)
Reputable Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 359
19/10/2018 1:22 pm  

Fertil Steril. 2003 Jun;79 Suppl 3:1659-61. Related Articles, Links

Comment in:
Fertil Steril. 2004 Jan;81(1):226.

Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin.

Menon DK.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Malaya Medical Centre, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. drmenon2000@yahoo.co.uk

OBJECTIVE: To document for the first time the successful treatment using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia that was persistent despite 1 year of cessation from steroid use. DESIGN: Clinical case report. SETTINGS: Tertiary referral center for infertility. PATIENT(S): A married couple with primary subfertility secondary to azoospermia and male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The husband was a bodybuilder who admitted to have used the anabolic steroids testosterone cypionate, methandrostenolone, oxandrolone, testosterone propionate, oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, and methenolone enanthate. INTERVENTION(S): Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Semen analyses, pregnancy. RESULT(S): Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later. CONCLUSION(S): Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.


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ready2explode
(@ready2explode)
Trusted Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 79
19/10/2018 2:09 pm  

Thanks jb

"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
~W.B. Prescott

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
~Albert Einstein


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liftsiron
(@liftsiron)
Estimable Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 199
19/10/2018 2:52 pm  

Then are those that don't seem to shut down regardless of dose, if you consider the number of guys who impregnated their wives or girlfriends on moderate to high dose cycles.

liftsiron is a fictional character and should be taken as such.


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Texas Ranger
(@texas-ranger)
Active Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 5
19/10/2018 3:32 pm  

Another good post, RG....


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chalked
(@chalked)
New Member
Joined: 2 months ago
Posts: 2
19/10/2018 4:25 pm  

so you can use HCG after cycle WITH Clomid and nolva? I thought you had to use HCG for the last 3 weeks while on til 1 week post cycle, then start Clomid and nolva but not to run HCG and Clomid together. i need to know because i need to come off soon and never used HCG but last year i did cycles with no PCT (been off 9 months before i started this 4 weeker...coming off now)


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Zircon
(@zircon)
Trusted Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 67
19/10/2018 5:04 pm  

its preferred to do low dose hcg throughout cycle.

Ths only seems if you are hypogonadl.

Ic thy use very high dose hcg shots...it seems it may be necessary sometimes to kickstart...dno why.

I think one should perhaps wait a month after doign the treatment before blood tests...as nolva and clmid have long haf lives??? surely it woudl affect your test levels positiviely if you still have 1/3 Clomid runnin aroudn in your system?


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chalked
(@chalked)
New Member
Joined: 2 months ago
Posts: 2
19/10/2018 5:50 pm  

bump


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