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I'm Quitting E....Adverse Reaction


cycle-ist
(@cycle-ist)
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Pretty depressed guys......and yes a little scared. My WBC is thru the roof along with Leukocytes and Platelets after loading 4 weeks on E. I'll post hard data in my next post but here is a summary: After first two weeks and 30k total units my Hct increased 4.9 and my WBC increased 2.0, After the the last two weeks and 60k total my Hct increased another 0.1 and my WBC another 6.0. I had a feeling my WBC would be high since I have been getting so many whiteheads (never in my life like this), but 3.0 over the reference range depresses me. Moreover my platelets are over the reference range....I am taking two baby aspirin a day in divided dose, but it still scares me. My lymphs is well below the reference range as well. I believe that the E is initiating the production of the wrong type of cell to an over-reactive immune response, unless I have a major disease which is unlikely. Any thought bro's? BTW, I'm definitely stopping the E......possibly for good. I have been using Kexing redijects.

MS, CSCS, CPT


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Realgains
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Re: I'm Quitting E....Adverse Reaction

Posted by: cycle-ist
Pretty depressed guys......and yes a little scared. My WBC is thru the roof along with Leukocytes and Platelets after loading 4 weeks on E. I'll post hard data in my next post but here is a summary: After first two weeks and 30k total units my Hct increased 4.9 and my WBC increased 2.0, After the the last two weeks and 60k total my Hct increased another 0.1 and my WBC another 6.0. I had a feeling my WBC would be high since I have been getting so many whiteheads (never in my life like this), but 3.0 over the reference range depresses me. Moreover my platelets are over the reference range....I am taking two baby aspirin a day in divided dose, but it still scares me. My lymphs is well below the reference range as well. I believe that the E is initiating the production of the wrong type of cell to an over-reactive immune response, unless I have a major disease which is unlikely. Any thought bro's? BTW, I'm definitely stopping the E......possibly for good. I have been using Kexing redijects.

Perhaps dirty gear bro....what is your temperature? Any localized infection(redness, swelling, warm to touch, pain)....but you won't see anything if you are doing your e IV.

RG


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cycle-ist
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RG,

These are widely used Kexing redijects from Eposino. It is definitely legit and has always been stored in my fridge at about 4* C other than the 3 day journey in transit. I just think that my body thinks its a litttle different from exogenous EPO and my immune system is attacking it. As for localized infection.....none. I get a little burning sensation when in inject SQ into my abdomen, but never any site reaction. I have been having night sweats for the past couple weeks, but I thought that it was just my body re-adjusting after the masteron Enthanate cleared my system. I am and have been using Prop at 140mg a week for about 8 weeks now and am using Arimidex at about .3 mg/day. Prior to starting the EPO, my initial blood work was perfect and I was on the Aromatase Inhibitor and Test Prop for 4 weeks at that point.

MS, CSCS, CPT


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cycle-ist
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My numbers:

4 weeks ago (prior to starting):

WBC 6.5
RBC 4.88
Hct 43.5
Hb 15.5
Platelets 198
Neutrophils 60
Lymphs 26
Monocytes 9
Neutrophils (absolute) 3.9
Lymphs (absolute) 1.7
Monocytes (absolute) 0.6

2 weeks ago (after 30,000 IU)

WBC 7.7
RBC 5.3
Hct 47.9
Hb 17.0
Platelets 204
Neutrophils 74
Lymphs 17
Monocytes 8
Neutrophils (absolute) 5.7
Lymphs (absolute) 1.3
Monocytes (absolute) 0.6

today (after 60,000 IU)

WBC 13.0
RBC 5.56
Hct 48.5
Hb 16.6
Platelets 420
Neutrophils 77
Lymphs 13
Monocytes 8
Neutrophils (absolute) 10.0
Lymphs (absolute) 1.7
Monocytes (absolute) 0.6

As you can see, RBC production has almost plateaued (a 0.6 increase in last two weeks). WBC count has progressed up and is now thru the roof due to a huge increase in Neutrophils. Platelets has also progressed up and is also out of the reference range.

MS, CSCS, CPT


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Spun
 Spun
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First let me say I'm sorry that you are having a bad time with your blood count results.

A couple weeks ago you were talking about a bad reaction to a SQ Test shot that was inflamed for multiple days. That sounds like potential infection.

Granted if you diluted it and kept using it with no more adverse reactions, it was probably just high BA content.


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acslater
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Looks like your neutrophils are up, which may indicate a bacterial infection. Neutrophils are usually the first on the scene to combat a bacteria. I agree with RG, it is likely an infection. The most common cause of thrombocytosis is an infectin.

Any redness at the injection site or pain/lumps in you groin or axilla (armpit)?

You might want to call your doc and get checked out. Typically the infection is caused by staph aureus, the best antibiotic for it is called Keflex. You want to be on 500mg QID for a minimum of 10 days.

Any time you stick a needle in your body, no matter how much you clean ther area and no matter how careful you are you are asways introducing some bacteria into the subcutaneous tisse. Its a fact. Alchohol swabs get rid of most but not all the bacteria. Its most likely a local injection site infection. Hopefully there are no bacteria in you blood stream. Not trying to freak you out, just trying to get you to go see your doc. You NEED blood work! Including blood cultures. Tell him you stuck yourself with a knife or something. But PLEASE GET CHECKED OUT!!!

I am in medicine. I hope you take my advice. Let me know how this goes, I am a little worried. Better safe than sorry.

I think the most worrrisome aside from the infection are the platelets. I would take a 325 mg apririn, BID. To prevent clotting. You are just over the high end of normal.

Posted by: cycle-ist
My numbers:

4 weeks ago (prior to starting):

WBC 6.5
RBC 4.88
Hct 43.5
Hb 15.5
Platelets 198
Neutrophils 60
Lymphs 26
Monocytes 9
Neutrophils (absolute) 3.9
Lymphs (absolute) 1.7
Monocytes (absolute) 0.6

2 weeks ago (after 30,000 IU)

WBC 7.7
RBC 5.3
Hct 47.9
Hb 17.0
Platelets 204
Neutrophils 74
Lymphs 17
Monocytes 8
Neutrophils (absolute) 5.7
Lymphs (absolute) 1.3
Monocytes (absolute) 0.6

today (after 60,000 IU)

WBC 13.0
RBC 5.56
Hct 48.5
Hb 16.6
Platelets 420
Neutrophils 77
Lymphs 13
Monocytes 8
Neutrophils (absolute) 10.0
Lymphs (absolute) 1.7
Monocytes (absolute) 0.6

As you can see, RBC production has almost plateaued (a 0.6 increase in last two weeks). WBC count has progressed up and is now thru the roof due to a huge increase in Neutrophils. Platelets has also progressed up and is also out of the reference range.


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acslater
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Let me also say that your platelets are not elevated b/c of the E. Also it wouldn't elevate your WBC either. EPO doesn't work that way.

I am fairly certain you have an infection. I see it all the time.


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sportmuaythai
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I'm very impressed by prompt helps given by bros on this board.


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factory61
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Posted by: sportmuaythai
I'm very impressed by prompt helps given by bros on this board.

+1


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puddinpop
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Sorry to hear of the bad news.... please keep us informed since this can happen to anyone of us.

pp


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Wheelies
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Thanks for sharing your experience.

It is often that members share the positive experiences but neglect to talk about the negative impacts of performance enhancement. Please keep us updated on your situation. I wish you the best.

I have always wondered why it takes so much epo for some folks to raise their hematocrit versus my own experience. I have been concerned about the amounts that of E that people load up on their first cycle. I highly recommend that members carefully read what's available on pharmaceutical companies websites regarding the dosing of Epo and start out on the low end. Keep in mind that their dosing amounts are for people with compromised health issues. In my mind, a very healthy body will take less of a dose of E to be just as effective. This seems to be my situation.

Please be careful out there!

W.


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cycle-ist
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Thank you for all of your help. I have been thinking. A couple additional things. I had flu-like symptoms for about a week....which ended 2 weeks ago. Also a week ago I strained my hamstring doing a power test. No visible internal bleeding, but that doesnt mean there wasn't any.

As for the SQ Test Injection, the redness has been gone for about a week now and I have never had any infection issues with the prop i have been using for 8 weeks now doing IM. I am very meticulous about swabbing the injection area and stopper before every injection. I have had a Staph Aureus infection before, but at this point I present no symptoms other than my blood work.

I have checked my nodes: axillary, infra-mandibular, and groin. No pain....no inflammation.

I am taking two baby aspirin daily....does full strength offer any additional anti-coagulant benefits? What is the ceiling dose for this effect?

I have some Keflex on hand, but at QID dosing it will be gone in a couple days.....perhaps enough time to get a doctor's appointment. I have a full bottle of Cipro......like I said before I had a Staph Aureus infection before that presented in my ankle. The symptoms resolved about 4-5 months ago. My ankle looks and feels good right now.

AC, If my body interprets the recombinant EPO as foreign.....isn't it possible that my WBC could become elevated. I'm not sure if bacteria or viruses alone cause the immune system to increase CSF? As for platelets, I am not too sure.....but the increased risk for clots scares me. However, I do know that I was on the Prop for 4 weeks prior to my first blood draw which was perfect.

At this point, I think my best option is to stop the E see the doc and redraw blood. I would start the Cipro as well, but I really want to know the cause.....actual bacterial, viral, or fungal infection or the E itself.

MS, CSCS, CPT


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acslater
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I will give a more comprehensive reply later, little busy right now.

Like I said prior any time you inject that needle is going through your skin it is taking a few bacteria with it into the subcutaneous tissue. Doesn't matter how well you clean your tops or if you use a clean needle. The source of the bacteria is your skin. Also doesn't matter how well you clean your skin there are still bacteria underneath the top layer of dead skin. In microbiology we cleanded our skin with alchohol then swabbed the skin and plated it. They grew bacteria!

The cipro, will work...

Baby ASA dose is for pts with heart disease. You need full dose 325 to help prevent clotting/DVT. I recommended BID bc I thought your were a fairly big guy with higher plasma volume than most. Its not overkill.

More on the EPO and the blood results to come. I might have to review a few textbooks. I think getting on cipro is crucial, 500mg q 12 hrs.

AC

Posted by: cycle-ist
Thank you for all of your help. I have been thinking. A couple additional things. I had flu-like symptoms for about a week....which ended 2 weeks ago. Also a week ago I strained my hamstring doing a power test. No visible internal bleeding, but that doesnt mean there wasn't any.

As for the SQ Test Injection, the redness has been gone for about a week now and I have never had any infection issues with the prop i have been using for 8 weeks now doing IM. I am very meticulous about swabbing the injection area and stopper before every injection. I have had a Staph Aureus infection before, but at this point I present no symptoms other than my blood work.

I have checked my nodes: axillary, infra-mandibular, and groin. No pain....no inflammation.

I am taking two baby aspirin daily....does full strength offer any additional anti-coagulant benefits? What is the ceiling dose for this effect?

I have some Keflex on hand, but at QID dosing it will be gone in a couple days.....perhaps enough time to get a doctor's appointment. I have a full bottle of Cipro......like I said before I had a Staph Aureus infection before that presented in my ankle. The symptoms resolved about 4-5 months ago. My ankle looks and feels good right now.

AC, If my body interprets the recombinant EPO as foreign.....isn't it possible that my WBC could become elevated. I'm not sure if bacteria or viruses alone cause the immune system to increase CSF? As for platelets, I am not too sure.....but the increased risk for clots scares me. However, I do know that I was on the Prop for 4 weeks prior to my first blood draw which was perfect.

At this point, I think my best option is to stop the E see the doc and redraw blood. I would start the Cipro as well, but I really want to know the cause.....actual bacterial, viral, or fungal infection or the E itself.


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cycle-ist
(@cycle-ist)
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Topic starter  

AC,

Sounds good. I appreciate your help. Really. I will use full strength Aspirin and start the Cipro immediately. In addition, I will stop the E, but continue with Prop. I get very little site reaction other than soreness with the Prop IM. In other words there may be a small amount of erythema but its gone within a day or two. I think its typical with Prop.

MS, CSCS, CPT


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Realgains
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Posts: 161
 

acslater

The dose that is recommend for platelet aggregation inhibition is 70-100mg...more doesn't help the vast majority. That's why heart disease patients are on it and that's why we take it when on epo.

Although...there have been some reports of some people needing a bigger dose.

The daily dose of ASA needed for suppression of platelet TXA2 production is approximately 30 mg Thus the usual dosage in clinical practice of at least 75 mg exceeds the minimal effective dose for full pharmacodynamic effect

There is a significant increase risk for GI bleeding from a full dose of asa. Also there can be negative impacts re: prostaglandin inhibition on renal function or BP control
Also, and my main concern here, is that if a rider crashes and hits his head he has a much higher chance of developing a sub dural hematoma(brain bleed) and that can be really bad news.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/561849_4

RG


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