Water Retention  

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oswaldosalcedo
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02/10/2018 3:23 pm  

Water retention by androgens
Oswaldo Salcedo (my ruminations)

HYPOPITUITARISM -> HYPOADRENALISM ->HYPONATREMIA
......................... -> HYPOTHYROIDISM ->HYPONATREMIA

one of the main mechanisms responsible for water retention is induced Hypopituitarism (reduced output of any pituitary hormone) by displaced Glucocorticoids (GC) through Androgens at the GC receptors, acting by antagonist mode, therefore decreasing Corticotropin (ACTH) w/wo decreased Thyrotropin (TSH) release. Subsequent to the ACTH decreased secretion, inhibits cortisol segregation at adrenals (Central Hypoadrenalism - Secondary Adrenal Insufficiency). The cortisol suppression produces in the hypothalamus, vasopressin (AVP) release, also known like anti diuretic hormone (ADH), this way GC insufficiency increases AVP mRNA expression, elevating abnormally, AVP levels, gives an increase in free water retention, decreased sodium pump activity, shift of extracellular sodium into cells and decreased delivery of filtrate to diluting segments of the nephron as a result of decreased glomerular filtration rate and effective renal plasma flow . GC inhibit AVP secretion by impairing AVP gene transcription.
The possible decreased TSH produces a central hypothyroidism ( trophoprivic, suprathyroid hypothyroidism) , which can contribute more to edema by augmented AVP release at the hypothalamus, decreased atrial natriuretic hormone (ANH), and decreased renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (RAAS), diminished salt delivery to the loop of Henle, and hialuronic acid (D-glucoronic acid and N-acetyl-D-glucosamine) and chondroitin sulfate b (L-iduronic acid and N-acetyl-D-galactosamine sulfate) hydrophilic deposits,this two mucopolysaccharides (Glycosaminoglycans, GAGs) which attract water strongly, results in more total body water. Characteristic of hypothyroidism too, is myxedema megacolon; a distended and hanging colon, facial edema and others.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1990 Jun;22(3):331-40.

Glucocorticoid antagonism by exercise and androgenic-anabolic steroids.

Hickson RC, Czerwinski SM, Falduto MT, Young AP.

Department of Physical Education, University of Illinois, Chicago 60680.

Naunyn Schmiedebergs Arch Pharmacol. 2003 Dec;368(6):487-95.

Effects of dehydroepiandrosterone on corticosterone release in rat zona fasciculata-reticularis cells.

Chang LL, Wun WS, Ho LL, Wang PS.

Department of Chemical Engineering, Chinese Culture University, Shih-Lin, Taipei 111, Taiwan, ROC.

The decline of plasma dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and maintenance of glucocorticoid levels with increasing age contribute to excess body fat accumulation, hyperglycaemia, hyperlipidaemia, hyperinsulinaemia and cancer. Although opposing actions of DHEA and corticosterone have been proposed in a rat model, the effects and action mechanisms of DHEA on rat adrenal zona fasciculata-reticularis (ZFR) cells are still unclear. This study addressed the effects of DHEA on corticosterone release, cellular cAMP production, the functions of steroidogenic enzymes and the expression levels of steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR) and cytochrome P450 side-chain cleavage enzyme (P450scc). ZFR cells were incubated with DHEA in the presence or absence of adrenocorticotropin (ACTH), 8-Br-cAMP, forskolin, 25-OH-cholesterol, pregnenolone, progesterone or deoxycorticosterone at 37 degrees C for 30 min, 1 h or 5 h and the concentration of corticosterone or pregnenolone measured subsequently in the media by RIA. The cells were used to measure the content of cAMP by RIA and to extract protein for Western blot or mRNA for RT-PCR analysis. The data demonstrated that (1) DHEA inhibited ACTH-, 8-Br-cAMP-, 25-OH-cholesterol-, pregnenolone-, progesterone- or deoxycorticosterone-stimulated corticosterone release; (2) DHEA increased 25-OH-cholesterol-stimulated pregnenolone release but not when 25-OH-cholesterol was combined with trilostane; (3) DHEA increased the K(m) of 11beta-hydroxylase but not P450scc; (4) DHEA affected the expression levels of StAR protein but not of P450scc. These results suggest that DHEA acts directly on rat ZFR cells to diminish corticosterone secretion by inhibition within the post-cAMP pathway, by inhibiting steroidogenic enzymes downstream from P450scc and by inhibiting StAR expression.

J Steroid Biochem. 1986 Feb;24(2):481-7.

Binding of glucocorticoid antagonists to androgen and glucocorticoid hormone receptors in rat skeletal muscle..

Danhaive PA, Rousseau GG

The binding of ten steroids possessing antiglucocorticoid activity has been studied in rat skeletal muscle cytosol. The affinity of these steroids for both the androgen and the glucocorticoid receptors was determined by competition with radioactive R1881 (methyltrienolone, metribolone) and dexamethasone, respectively. The antiglucocorticoid activity of these compounds was assessed in rat hepatoma (HTC) cells by measuring their inhibitory effect on the glucocorticoid-induced tyrosine aminotransferase activity. This led to identification of five novel in vitro glucocorticoid antagonists. All the steroids tested bound to both the glucocorticoid and the androgen receptors in muscle. Four steroids had an affinity for the glucocorticoid receptor higher than for the androgen receptor. The assumption is made that the steroids tested also behave as antagonists when binding to the glucocorticoid receptor in muscle and behave as agonists when binding to the androgen receptor.

J Neuroendocrinol. 1996 Jun;8(6):439-47.

Androgens modulate glucocorticoid receptor mRNA, but not mineralocorticoid receptor mRNA levels, in the rat hippocampus.

Kerr JE, Beck SG, Handa RJ.

Tissue-specific expression patterns of nuclear receptors, 2006

Bookout AL, Jeong Y, Downes M, Yu R, Evans RM and Mangelsdorf

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Big Cat
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02/10/2018 4:18 pm  

Its a nice theory, but if that were the case, wouldn't you expect to see more water retention in drugs that block GR better ? Yet with such drugs, like halo and bold, there is actually LESS water retention. So I doubt that is the reason for androgen related water retention.

On top of that, many people still claim that using anti-estrogens helps with water retention. While I have likened that practice to shooting a mosquito with a bazooka, it does indicate that estrogens may play a key role in relating the signal that causes the water retention, and it is likely a more direct action of the steroids upon the lymphatic and renal systems.

Good things come to those who weight.

The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.


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guijr
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02/10/2018 4:53 pm  
Posted by: Big Cat
Its a nice theory, but if that were the case, wouldn't you expect to see more water retention in drugs that block GR better ? Yet with such drugs, like halo and bold, there is actually LESS water retention. So I doubt that is the reason for androgen related water retention.

On top of that, many people still claim that using anti-estrogens helps with water retention. While I have likened that practice to shooting a mosquito with a bazooka, it does indicate that estrogens may play a key role in relating the signal that causes the water retention, and it is likely a more direct action of the steroids upon the lymphatic and renal systems.

If it's not an AI for water retention issues, what would it be? And in your opinion what are main reasons fo using an AI?

"The medals don't mean anything and the glory doesn't last. It's all about your happiness. The rewards are going to come, but my happiness is just loving the sport and having fun performing" ~ Jackie Joyner Kersee.


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oswaldosalcedo
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02/10/2018 5:43 pm  
Posted by: Big Cat
Its a nice theory, but if that were the case, wouldn't you expect to see more water retention in drugs that block GR better ? Yet with such drugs, like halo and bold, there is actually LESS water retention. So I doubt that is the reason for androgen related water retention.

On top of that, many people still claim that using anti-estrogens helps with water retention. While I have likened that practice to shooting a mosquito with a bazooka, it does indicate that estrogens may play a key role in relating the signal that causes the water retention, and it is likely a more direct action of the steroids upon the lymphatic and renal systems.

i have used bold,and i retain water anyway .
it happen more with medium and longer acting than fast roids(with me),maybe there is roids that elict more intense action at GC receptors than others of course: (tissue selectivity of steroid action may depend upon ligand-induced conformation and recruitment of a tissue-specific repertoire of coregulatory factors that function as coactivators and corepressors).
now i am using Stanozolol and methandrosteolone and the water retention it is almost null, i know,i know...... stano is dry, but metha?,maybe have to do with time, when you take roids too; Yang X, Downes M, Yu R, Bookout AL, He W, Straume M, Mangelsdorf DJ and Evans RM (2006). Nuclear receptor expression links the circadian clock to metabolism. Cell 126, 801-810).

take in account that adrogens can produces hypocortisolemia.
and what meaning has for you block gr better? please.


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Big Cat
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02/10/2018 6:41 pm  
Posted by: oswaldosalcedo
i have used bold,and i retain water anyway .
it happen more with medium and longer acting than fast roids(with me),maybe there is roids that elict more intense action at GC receptors than others of course: (tissue selectivity of steroid action may depend upon ligand-induced conformation and recruitment of a tissue-specific repertoire of coregulatory factors that function as coactivators and corepressors).
now i am using stanozolol and methandrosteolone and the water retention it is almost null, i know,i know...... stano is dry, but metha?,maybe have to do with time, when you take roids too; Yang X, Downes M, Yu R, Bookout AL, He W, Straume M, Mangelsdorf DJ and Evans RM (2006). Nuclear receptor expression links the circadian clock to metabolism. Cell 126, 801-810).

take in account that adrogens can produces hypocortisolemia.
and what meaning has for you block gr better? please.

Quite the opposite, it is short-acting drugs known to INCREASE cortisol sensitivity like Dbol and Anadrol that tend to cause the most water retention, where drugs that decrease cortisol sensitivity like boldenone and Halotestin that tend to DECREASE water retention.

Perhaps you just retain water fast, so I won't exclude that you are so sensitive that you retain water on bold, but not a living soul has ever retained water on drugs like halmotestin, and most people will retain water on drol and dbol, regardless of sensitivity.

Good things come to those who weight.

The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.


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Big Cat
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02/10/2018 7:36 pm  
Posted by: guijr
If it's not an AI for water retention issues, what would it be? And in your opinion what are main reasons fo using an AI?

AI's in my opinion are only good for people with pathological estrogen-related problems, and people who get gyno when a stiff breeze pops up. For any other athlete, they will cause more problems than they cure.

Treating water retention is best done with drugs that treat ... water retention ! (bet ya didn't see that one coming ) such as mild diuretics, caffeine, lots of water, and if needed some heavier diuretics and ACE blockers. In the latter case of course, I highly advise you do so under the care of your physician.

Good things come to those who weight.

The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.


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oswaldosalcedo
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02/10/2018 8:11 pm  
Posted by: Big Cat
Quite the opposite, it is short-acting drugs known to INCREASE cortisol sensitivity like dbol and anadrol that tend to cause the most water retention, where drugs that decrease cortisol sensitivity like boldenone and halotestin that tend to DECREASE water retention.

Perhaps you just retain water fast, so I won't exclude that you are so sensitive that you retain water on bold, but not a living soul has ever retained water on drugs like halmotestin, and most people will retain water on drol and dbol, regardless of sensitivity.

very categorical affirmation,taking in account that i am using 60 mg of dbol and i am very dry,no water retention.


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Big Cat
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03/10/2018 5:03 am  

maybe you are just weird

No seriously, its not abnormal for a someone not to bloat on Dbol, or to bloat on bold, but I've never seen someone that had both. Either you bloat easily, in which case even bold could spell trouble, or you don't bloat easily at all and you can take dbol no sweat. But I must admit, you are the very first one to ever tell me they bloat on bold and not on dbol.

Give drol a shot at 150 and tell me how you fare with that. And then Halo at 40

Good things come to those who weight.

The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.


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jboldman
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03/10/2018 5:43 am  

i actually did do drol at 150 once along with Tren At 100mg/day while dieting (kids do not try this at home) and had zero bloat. would i do it again,ABSOLUTELY NOT, HIGH BP, HEADACHES, ELEVATED LIVER ENZYMES, ...........

jb
(who does not do or recommend orals)


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Big Cat
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03/10/2018 6:29 am  

yeah, but I'm willing to bet you don't bloat on much then if you don't bloat on drol and dbol ...

Good things come to those who weight.

The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.


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oswaldosalcedo
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03/10/2018 7:15 am  
Posted by: Big Cat
maybe you are just weird

No seriously, its not abnormal for a someone not to bloat on dbol, or to bloat on bold, but I've never seen someone that had both. Either you bloat easily, in which case even bold could spell trouble, or you don't bloat easily at all and you can take dbol no sweat. But I must admit, you are the very first one to ever tell me they bloat on bold and not on dbol.

Give drol a shot at 150 and tell me how you fare with that. And then Halo at 40

Correct! ,this way scientific theories have to encompass any situation (pertinent to elements of their universe).

when people have no understanding, things seem weird for them.


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guijr
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03/10/2018 8:06 am  
Posted by: jboldman
i actually did do drol at 150 once along with tren at 100mg/day while dieting (kids do not try this at home) and had zero bloat. would i do it again,ABSOLUTELY NOT, HIGH BP, HEADACHES, ELEVATED LIVER ENZYMES, ...........

jb
(who does not do or recommend orals)

This thing is very cheap down here and readly available .

"The medals don't mean anything and the glory doesn't last. It's all about your happiness. The rewards are going to come, but my happiness is just loving the sport and having fun performing" ~ Jackie Joyner Kersee.


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Tazmaniac
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03/10/2018 8:55 am  

Less water retention...

Hmmm...well, maybe it's just the way my body is, I swell up while eating a shitload of carbs while on.

If I keep the carb intake low to moderate with good exercise, my water retention is minimal.

Disclaimer:
Information that Tazmaniac presents is totally fictitious in nature and is presented for role playing purposes only. The opinions presented do not encourage the use of illegal substances nor take the place of professional medical advice.

Death gotta be easy, cause life is hard...it'll leave you physically, mentally, and emotionally scarred~50 Cent


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oswaldosalcedo
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03/10/2018 9:45 am  
Posted by: jboldman
i actually did do drol at 150 once along with tren at 100mg/day while dieting (kids do not try this at home) and had zero bloat. would i do it again,ABSOLUTELY NOT, HIGH BP, HEADACHES, ELEVATED LIVER ENZYMES, ...........

jb
(who does not do or recommend orals)

at what time did you take it? mr. jboldman,please.


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jboldman
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03/10/2018 10:37 am  

tren first thing in the morning, drol 7a, 12, 5p. did i mention that i was also on prop at the time

that was at the height of my experimenting believing that i could get massive like the mags.

and yes it was hemogenin, guijr! I had a friend at the time in brazil send it up to me.

jb


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