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Why do athletes use drugs?


Realgains
(@realgains)
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Below are a couple sets of posts that I put together to try to explain to those that think people that use performance enhancing drugs either suck, are ethically immoral cheaters, or are nuts or all of the above

First of all I would like to say that my feelings of self worth as a man have nothing to do with weather or not I dope or don't dope. Athletics for me, and for many others, is simply a way to keep fit and slow the aging process, to reduce personal stress in this stressful world and to have FUN! I train very hard and smart and I do very well without dope and it's fun. I have trained MANY riders to great success on the bike and almost all of my trainees never dope. Yes I have guys that dope and yes I have helped them in this regard...but it's their choice to dope.

I have doped and MAY dope again because it's a BLAST. If I win clean that's great and sure it is more "meaningful" to win clean than to win doped...BUT only if you are racing against undoped guys. Frankly winning doped isn't fun if the field is clean.(..but punishing the dicks out there along the way sure is he he he). If you are racing doped against other guys that are doped, and believe me there are plenty even in the masters and it is very obvious, then it's just as meaningful. But you know, winning isn't where the most fun lies anyway....it's found in just being there hammering.

It ain't cheating if you are racing against other dopers. Personally I know of MANY masters level riders that dope and in fact I think there are more masters racers doped than Cat 1's in the USA. It's not just a few here and there.

That said...it's just a damn sport guys...a game......in the end who really gives a shit. I, and almost everyone here are not making a living off the bike.

As an aside.....if you take caffeine before a race, or any other drug or herb that contains drugs, you are a doper so please...those that comment negatively to this post ask yourself if you take caffeine before a race. Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it's not doping.

A good non flaming bro said the following>>>>

RG as a cyclist I am proud that cycling has been singled out! All pro sports should head this way there should be zero tolerance on drug taking. If it needs to get worse before it gets better then that is the way it has to be.
I am still slightly stunned though that a high profile team has blatantly just disregarded the progresses being made in the tdf of the past two years. Individuals I could have accepted as regular dopers struggle to keep their places on the team but still...

My reply>>>>

Bro...I appreciate your candor and your lack of flaming.

Couple things bro....There has been NO progress the last couple years...that is a lie from UCI etc.
Secondly bro....they are ALL doped to some degree...it's all a matter of degree. "Leave me in Peace; everybody takes dope" Jacques Anquetil

Sure I would love to see pro sport totally clean. The truth of the matter is this...it will never be clean. WHY?>>because there is way way too much money to be won and "gotten" via sponsorship , contracts and endorsements. There will always be guys doping because they want like hell to get a "piece of the pie' and they will do anything to get it. When you are faced with the choice between being ethical and not doping and doing OK at best, or unethical and doping so that you might make a good whack of cash....most guys take the latter choice and especially as they see their careers ending soon and a life of uneducated financial mediocrity ahead.

Most pro athletes are not college educated bro....they don't want to open up a bike shop when they retire...they want "lances" house in Barcelona!

It is way too easy to beat the controls bro...way too easy. The big fish don't even use epo...they just blood dope with their own packed cells that have been deep frozen. This is what Armstrong, Basso and Ullrich did for years....but it takes money and knowhow to do this. So what is happening now is paving the way for another Armstrong to dominate ......a guy that can blood dope with his own blood. Now there is Dynepo and I highly highly doubt they will ever make parameters for Dynepo because it is human identical and not animal protein based like all the rest. The only parameters I can see would be the "level" of human epo in your blood...and this can be kept low via micro dosing IV.

Then there is GENE DOPING!!!

anyway.....
As long as millions are to me made in pro sport then doping will never stop no matter how smart the controls get.

So my friend...stop dreaming...it ain't going to happen. It's all about MONEY bro....most guys don't give a shit about ethics if they have a chance to make millions. Ethics don't give you any financial freedom when you retire. It's sad but true bro....the WORLD is all about Money(and sex lol) but money trumps sex. Pro sport is all about MONEY!

More from this good fellow below>>>In this next statement he is referring to a 23 year old rider that has considered performance enhancing drugs other than caffeine,aspirin and tramadol.

I can understand the pressures of Pro athletes to take drugs to enhance performance. But why the hell do guy's like yourselves take drugs?

My reply >>>>

Some on this forum are good enough to get a pro contract bro...and they are dreaming of one...they want a "piece of the pie" and maybe ...just maybe...they can some day buy Lances house in Barcelona. They know damn well that the elite amateur level is highly doped, especially in some countries, and in this day and age they are more doped than the pro's. The controls in elite amateur racing area joke to say the least.

Bro...some dope simply for fun. It is fun to be superman even if it's not really you. It's a fun game bro and if you know what you are doing it is not a game with your health.

It's like the bodybuilder playing with roids...are they all pro's?...hell no...they just like getting big and strong...it's FUN for them. Should I tell them they suck for doping?....hell no, it's none of my damn business.....and who the hell am I to pass judgment on their character....I don't know them from Jack!

I do the odd epo cycle from time to time (rare)just for fun and to punish assholes, and you know how many there are in cycling.
I know how to train bro and I train very hard and smart....I still have a 320 watt FTP at 45 years of age and 70 kilo's without epo...but with epo my 5 minute VO2 max repeat power becomes my 60 minute threshold power and my repeatabilty goes through the roof. I can then ride with the best 25 year old elite on weekends(as long as they are not on epo ...and it's a blast for me.

Epo is not dangerous bro....IF IF IF you know what you are doing, and that includes IV dosing to avoid the tiny change of getting PRCA. In fact I think a crit of 48- 50% is good for optimal health..and I am a health care professional.

Then there is HRT(hormone replaGRWOXXLent therapy) for older men....for health reasons.

At my age Testosterone and Human growth hormone is usually low(especially HGH). So hormone replaGRWOXXLent therapy can help your health. My T is still the same as it was when I was 25 but my HGH/IGF-1 is not so I am seriously considering an HRT dose of HGH for the rest of my life.

I know an HRT doctor that likes all his clients at 48-50% crit too.

Bro...and here is a little secret and another reason. You do not loose all your power gains from doping once you stop...you are changed forever to some degree. Ever notice that bodybuilders that stop using roids still stay fairly big as long as they keep working out?

Even one cycle of epo will see you at higher power once you are natural, and back to your old crit, than if you never doped in that same time period...and as long as you keep training you don't loose this....and in fact your body is more responsive to keep growing to a higher degree naturally since it was once VERY high.
It's called aerobic memory bro.
SO, doping can be a way for late starters to catch up as a natural athlete.

So bro...there are many reasons why some of guys on this forum dope. Here they have found a home where they can speak their minds in freedom without being judged.

So hang around bro but stay as you are and don't flame. Heck...one day you might just want to try a little testosterone, or Novedex XT when your T drops from hard training and you have no sex drive(and the wife is pissed) and you can't recover from day to day no matter how you restructure your training. Some day you might want to try a little HGH when your my age for HRT. Heck, some day you might want to know what it feels like to be at 50% hematocrit and fly as superman for a while...just for fun if nothing else.

What about the young kids on this forum?
I could say a lot on this subject....but in short I'll say this much... stuff like testosterone, HGH and EPO need to be reversed for guys out of their teens. (ie Teens are still growing and androgens and HGH can screw them up pretty easily, fusing growth plates is one issue).
Also, you REALLY have to know what you are doing or performance enhancing drugs can hurt you. EPO is harmless if you IV dose, watch your crit and hydration and take your baby aspirin but it will kill you if you don't know what you are doing ....so you need a certain level of maturity or you are asking for trouble.

My .02...as flawed as some may think it is.

Cheers Bro's

RG

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Pure Blood
(@pure-blood)
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Re: Why do athletes use drugs?

Posted by: Realgains
Below are a couple sets of posts that I put together to try to explain to those that think people that use performance enhancing drugs either suck, are ethically immoral cheaters, or are nuts or all of the above

Hey RG thank you for taking the time to reply in length to some of my 'concerns'.

A friend of mine stumbled across this site and although there is no doubt that it is VERY informative regards training and nutrition, we were also absolutely stunned at the openness and widespread use of drug taking.

I have read your replies with interest and there is no doubt that you and probably the majority of other users of this forum are way more clued up on the complexities of drug taking than I am. So I would like to thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts in an educated fashion and to answer many of my unanswered questions.

I have to say that coming to work at 8am on a wet rainy Friday morning in the UK and reading your replies was at first rather depressing. You are right how can you stop doping in sport if 'everyone' is doing it and participants care more for the money than their love of the sport that they have grown up with and sacrificed everything for. And if doping with transfusions of your own red blood cell enriched blood is nay on impossible to catch then hey we may as well just give up the fight on drugs now.

Hell for a split second you even got me thinking as to what it would be like to be as a strong as I was in my late teens again. Stronger even! And be able to train 6 days a week without a problem. I’m only 34 now but I am still starting to feel it

But then as the coffee and the bacon sandwich kicked in I thought no hang on a minute two wrongs don’t make a right, even a million wrongs don’t make a right.

Perhaps myself and my friends are a little naive in thinking the majority (or at least half surely!) of pro riders out there are clean. But in a way I’m kind of glad that we do think like that, innocent until proven guilty right. However I am certainly not so naive to think that doping is still not rife in all sports not just cycling. Plus I agree that there is no sport that will ever be able to completely eradicate cheating, when the rewards are so high. It's like in life we'll never stop people running red lights or commiting tax fraud. However because we know this do we just say oh well what’s the point in even condemning this wrongful activity then if people are still going to do it no matter what we do or say?

As I have said before I am really proud that cycling as a sport is speaking out about drugs and admitting that there has been and still is a problem. The press should be praising cycling not condemning it. Can you imagine athletics speaking out in quite the same way and athletes being so open about the widespread drug use in their sport. I think the UCI and ASO should also be praised for their efforts in tackling this problem. I don't believe as you say that progress is not being made towards making pro cycling a drug free arena.

I would strongly argue that there are at least three EPO FREE teams on the tour right now (that are winning stages and high up in the overall standings) that are being policed not by outside bodies but by their own management and infrastructure. This is the way fwd in cycling, combined with the ongoing efforts of the governing body and race organisers towards testing policies. I think the passport scheme is a great idea as this is a simple way to show a riders average crit levels over a season or year and should make it easy to spot and dare I say target individual riders whose levels rarely deviate from the the high 40's and early 50's.

I would also hope that as more in roads are made into making pro cycling drug free and more cheats are caught and prosecuted (and vilified) Losing not only their careers and livelihoods but the respect of their fans and countrymen that youngsters and semi pro riders coming up through the ranks will see that actually the risks FAR far out weigh the possible gains to be had by drug taking.

Regards your arguments of doping outside of the pro circuit at a lower level and by older riders, again I can see where you are coming from I really can. However to say that doping has nothing to do with your own self worth is something that I really cannot believe. What other reason could you possibly have for doing it if earning money from racing is taken out of the equation? As you said you do it to feel stronger, to kick the ass of cocky [email protected] and to still be able to keep up with the 25 year old 1st cats. ALL of these reasons come back to self worth. Personally I feel good about myself competing against like minded friends and club mates. Racing and improving upon my own personal bests. And when I get to an age where this is not possible I will set myself new goals and targets, change my riding style go more for distance and endurance than power. All without the use of drugs, as quite simply I feel that there is no need for them unless you are feeling insecure in yourself.

The only drug taking I can agree on is HRT replaGRWOXXLent if it is for genuine health reasons. Because as you say when you get older you still want to keep fit and the body may need a big helping hand. But I’m talking 50 years old plus here, when the competitive argument shouldn’t really come into the equation any more. Not that I’m writing off all 50year olds as past it!

Finally as you say blood doping is dangerous, so why a non pro would even want to take the risks associated with taking drugs and have the worry about blood thickening etc I still don’t really get.

I also won’t get into the arguments associated with teens taking these type of drugs and being influenced and in some cases persuaded to take drugs at an early age to increase performance. As to be honest it kinda makes me feel sick with disappointment and angry that there are individuals and ‘coaches’ out there that are ruining and corrupting a sport that I love with a passion from the roots level up.

I am sure a lot of guys on here won't even be able to see where I am coming from. That to me is what is really sad, that something that is morally, ethically and physilogically wrong has so quickly been adopted into the norm.

Cheers

Matt Last edited by Pure Blood on 07-18-2008 at 12:26 PM


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Realgains
(@realgains)
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Topic starter  

Re: Re: Why do athletes use drugs?

Posted by: Pure Blood
Hey RG thank you for taking the time to reply in length to some of my 'concerns'.

A friend of mine stumbled across this site and although there is no doubt that it is VERY informative regards training and nutrition, we were also absolutely stunned at the openness and widespread use of drug taking.

I have read your replies with interest and there is no doubt that you and probably the majority of other users of this forum are way more clued up on the complexities of drug taking than I am. So I would like to thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts in an educated fashion and to answer many of my unanswered questions.

I have to say that coming to work at 8am on a wet rainy Friday morning in the UK and reading your replies was at first rather depressing. You are right how can you stop doping in sport if 'everyone' is doing it and participants care more for the money than their love of the sport that they have grown up with and sacrificed everything for. And if doping with transfusions of your own red blood cell enriched blood is nay on impossible to catch then hey we may as well just give up the fight on drugs now.

Hell for a split second you even got me thinking as to what it would be like to be as a strong as I was in my late teens again. Stronger even! And be able to train 6 days a week without a problem. I’m only 34 now but I am still starting to feel it

But then as the coffee and the bacon sandwich kicked in I thought no hang on a minute two wrongs don’t make a right, even a million wrongs don’t make a right.

Perhaps myself and my friends are a little naive in thinking the majority (or at least half surely!) of pro riders out there are clean. But in a way I’m kind of glad that we do think like that, innocent until proven guilty right. However I am certainly not so naive to think that doping is still not rife in all sports not just cycling. Plus I agree that there is no sport that will ever be able to completely eradicate cheating, when the rewards are so high. It's like in life we'll never stop people running red lights or commiting tax fraud. However because we know this do we just say oh well what’s the point in even condemning this wrongful activity then if people are still going to do it no matter what we do or say?

As I have said before I am really proud that cycling as a sport is speaking out about drugs and admitting that there has been and still is a problem. The press should be praising cycling not condemning it. Can you imagine athletics speaking out in quite the same way and athletes being so open about the widespread drug use in their sport. I think the UCI and ASO should also be praised for their efforts in tackling this problem. I don't believe as you say that progress is not being made towards making pro cycling a drug free arena.

I would strongly argue that there are at least three EPO FREE teams on the tour right now (that are winning stages and high up in the overall standings) that are being policed not by outside bodies but by their own management and infrastructure. This is the way fwd in cycling, combined with the ongoing efforts of the governing body and race organisers towards testing policies. I think the passport scheme is a great idea as this is a simple way to show a riders average crit levels over a season or year and should make it easy to spot and dare I say target individual riders whose levels rarely deviate from the the high 40's and early 50's.

I would also hope that as more in roads are made into making pro cycling drug free and more cheats are caught and prosecuted (and vilified) Losing not only their careers and livelihoods but the respect of their fans and countrymen that youngsters and semi pro riders coming up through the ranks will see that actually the risks FAR far out weigh the possible gains to be had by drug taking.

Regards your arguments of doping outside of the pro circuit at a lower level and by older riders, again I can see where you are coming from I really can. However to say that doping has nothing to do with your own self worth is something that I really cannot believe. What other reason could you possibly have for doing it if earning money from racing is taken out of the equation? As you said you do it to feel stronger, to kick the ass of cocky [email protected] and to still be able to keep up with the 25 year old 1st cats. ALL of these reasons come back to self worth. Personally I feel good about myself competing against like minded friends and club mates. Racing and improving upon my own personal bests. And when I get to an age where this is not possible I will set myself new goals and targets, change my riding style go more for distance and endurance than power. All without the use of drugs, as quite simply I feel that there is no need for them unless you are feeling insecure in yourself.

The only drug taking I can agree on is HRT replaGRWOXXLent if it is for genuine health reasons. Because as you say when you get older you still want to keep fit and the body may need a big helping hand. But I’m talking 50 years old plus here, when the competitive argument shouldn’t really come into the equation any more. Not that I’m writing off all 50year olds as past it!

Finally as you say blood doping is dangerous, so why a non pro would even want to take the risks associated with taking drugs and have the worry about blood thickening etc I still don’t really get.

I also won’t get into the arguments associated with teens taking these type of drugs and being influenced and in some cases persuaded to take drugs at an early age to increase performance. As to be honest it kinda makes me feel sick with disappointment and angry that there are individuals and ‘coaches’ out there that are ruining and corrupting a sport that I love with a passion from the roots level up.

I am sure a lot of guys on here won't even be able to see where I am coming from. That to me is what is really sad, that something that is morally, ethically and physilogically wrong has so quickly been adopted into the norm.

Cheers

Matt

Thanx for that reply...I appreciate your opinions.

Questions for ya bro....do you drink socially? Do you ever get a "buzz"? Is it fun? Are your feelings of self worth tied up in the drinking? For the vast majority the answer would be no.
...and bro drinking is drug use....it's just "socially acceptable and taking a little epo to reach 50% crit, or even 48, isn't.

Many non pro's that are not aspiring to turn pro, dope for fun bro and self worth has nothing to do with it. It's like non pro bodybuilder doing a little testosterone or D-bol....same thing exactly bro except the androgen use always has health consequences and epo use doesn't.

Now I am speaking of epo here but there are other drugs like HGH...or what about Caffeine .....isn't that a fairly powerful stimulant. But the world has told us caffeine is just fine to use in training or racing. Many scientists think caffeine is bad shit bro and is way stronger and has way more negative affects than the "world" of Freds would like to admit. In fact National Geographic said that caffeine users brains do not work properly unless on caffeine.

Yes I think there are pro riders that don't dope and even whole teams at the tour...and some of them win sprint stages.
Trouble is those guys are banging their heads against a brick wall bro....the dopers will always be there.....as time passes and more guys don't dope then the discrepancy between the really good riders and the so-so riders will just get bigger. That's sad but true and especially as we see gene doping.

Doping cannot stop as long as millions are to be made in pro sport...take away the money and you might very well see a clean TDF.

My .02

Peace

RG


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Pure Blood
(@pure-blood)
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Posted by: Realgains
Thanx for that reply...I appreciate your opinions.

Questions for ya bro....do you drink socially? Do you ever get a "buzz"? Is it fun? Are your feelings of self worth tied up in the drinking? For the vast majority the answer would be no.
...and bro drinking is drug use....it's just "socially acceptable and taking a little epo to reach 50% crit, or even 48, isn't.

I do drink yes. Are my total feelings of self worth tied up in my drinking, well no. But that is not to say I don't feel better about myself and more confident when I have been drinking so to a degree you could argue that yes in the bigger picture it does add to my overall feeling of well being.

You really cannot start comparing drinking a natural stimulant such as beer to injecting yourself with CERA tho etc

Posted by: Realgains
Many non pro's that are not aspiring to turn pro, dope for fun bro and self worth has nothing to do with it. It's like non pro bodybuilder doing a little testosterone or d-bol....same thing exactly bro except the androgen use always has health consequences and epo use doesn't.

Your kidding yourself here m8. People dont dope 'for fun' they dope to get results. They dope to get results to beat their peers, to make themselves look more attractive. This all comes back to self worth. Where is the 'fun' in risking your health if your not striving to achieve personal greatness and gain?

Posted by: Realgains
Now I am speaking of epo here but there are other drugs like HGH...or what about Caffeine .....isn't that a fairly powerful stimulant. But the world has told us caffeine is just fine to use in training or racing. Many scientists think caffeine is bad shit bro and is way stronger and has way more negative affects than the "world" of Freds would like to admit. In fact National Geographic said that caffeine users brains do not work properly unless on caffeine.

Comparing caffeine to EPO! Caffeine isnt even in the same league as alcohol drug wise and as mentioned previously alcohol is simply not comparable to a chemically created injectable drug. All drugs even natural ones will fook you up if you take enough of them. That is not the point though, they are recreational drugs in a way that EPO is most certainly not. This is the trouble with forums like this. If you are surrounded by like minded people you begin to kid yourself that what you are doing is in fact ok. Well I hate to burst anyones bubble but it simply isn't. And I am really not being self righteous when I say that.

Posted by: Realgains
Yes I think there are pro riders that don't dope and even whole teams at the tour...and some of them win sprint stages.
Trouble is those guys are banging their heads against a brick wall bro....the dopers will always be there.....as time passes and more guys don't dope then the discrepancy between the really good riders and the so-so riders will just get bigger. That's sad but true and especially as we see gene doping.

Doping cannot stop as long as millions are to be made in pro sport...take away the money and you might very well see a clean TDF.

Sorry but your last statement just does not ring true.

You admit that there are clean riders riding and winning at the top levels.

As more dopers are caught you are right there will be a visible gap out on the road or track between some of those that do and those that dont dope. But this will just have the affect of highlighting those riders on drugs! I refer you to Ricco, he looked to good to be true and he was...
IMO it will only take a little more of a shift in the balance between clean and doped riders to see a dramatic effect in pro cycling. When clean riders are in the major majority rather than minority they will be more outspoken towards doping team mates and colleagues. Doping simply will not be tolerated by those that are training and riding clean. Would you keep your mouth shut if your livelihood was being taken away from you by a cheat? i know I wouldn't.

Matt


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ex_banana-eater
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Re: Re: Why do athletes use drugs?

Posted by: Pure Blood
But then as the coffee and the bacon sandwich kicked in I thought no hang on a minute two wrongs don’t make a right, even a million wrongs don’t make a right.


But doping isn't wrong.


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Pure Blood
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Re: Re: Re: Why do athletes use drugs?

Posted by: ex_banana-eater
But doping isn't wrong.

That's right! Keep telling yourself that whilst your having tea with the fairies.


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kicking
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All this nonsense back and forth about doping in cycling, not this thread in particular but in general, I just shake my head...

Bros, ALL sports are jacked. EVERY stadium sport in the USA is guilty.

At least pro cycling is trying to do something about it....


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Realgains
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Topic starter  
Posted by: Pure Blood
I do drink yes. Are my total feelings of self worth tied up in my drinking, well no. But that is not to say I don't feel better about myself and more confident when I have been drinking so to a degree you could argue that yes in the bigger picture it does add to my overall feeling of well being.

You really cannot start comparing drinking a natural stimulant such as beer to injecting yourself with CERA tho etc

Your kidding yourself here m8. People dont dope 'for fun' they dope to get results. They dope to get results to beat their peers, to make themselves look more attractive. This all comes back to self worth. Where is the 'fun' in risking your health if your not striving to achieve personal greatness and gain?

Comparing caffeine to EPO! Caffeine isnt even in the same league as alcohol drug wise and as mentioned previously alcohol is simply not comparable to a chemically created injectable drug. All drugs even natural ones will fook you up if you take enough of them. That is not the point though, they are recreational drugs in a way that EPO is most certainly not. This is the trouble with forums like this. If you are surrounded by like minded people you begin to kid yourself that what you are doing is in fact ok. Well I hate to burst anyones bubble but it simply isn't. And I am really not being self righteous when I say that.

Sorry but your last statement just does not ring true.

You admit that there are clean riders riding and winning at the top levels.

As more dopers are caught you are right there will be a visible gap out on the road or track between some of those that do and those that dont dope. But this will just have the affect of highlighting those riders on drugs! I refer you to Ricco, he looked to good to be true and he was...
IMO it will only take a little more of a shift in the balance between clean and doped riders to see a dramatic effect in pro cycling. When clean riders are in the major majority rather than minority they will be more outspoken towards doping team mates and colleagues. Doping simply will not be tolerated by those that are training and riding clean. Would you keep your mouth shut if your livelihood was being taken away from you by a cheat? i know I wouldn't.

Matt

Bro.....I am trying to get you to think "out of the box" for a minute....out of the box created by the world of Freds....people that say it's OK to ingest caffeine or sleep in an altitude tent but not OK to use epo. There is a whole list of accepted drugs and things people do, that others cannot do or take, to get an edge....is that not doping?

Bro...people dope for fun all the time. Sure there will be people that have their self worth wrapped up in that but I am telling ya I never did and I know TONS of guys that that feel the same. Sure guys dope to win....and what's wrong with that when you are racing against other dopers.

Ricco looked jacked... true... but so do all the top climbers bro. They(the top riders) are ALL jacked...including Evans. I raced at a very high level bro and I have many "connections" and I am telling ya bro.. almost all euro pro's are jacked to some degree. You cannot climb with a talented man that has a high crit no matter how talented you are...it cannot be done. Prime example was in 91 when when the two most talented riders got dropped like stones and ended up 6th and 7th...even though they were genetic freaks(Lemond and Fignon). These men missed the epo boat bro...the year before Lemond detroyed them all(same guys) even though he was not in top shape. In 91 he was in the best shape of his life(he said) and he still got humiliated.

Just because caffeine gives a much milder performance enhanGRWOXXLent than epo, and is "legal", doesn't mean you are not doping by taking it. It is still doping to use it as an aide in a race. It does a fair bit to spare muscle gylcogen and it is a pretty decent stimulant. There used to be a limit on caffeine but that was taken away...so now it's fine to have more than 6mg per kilo in ya.

Alcohol does not exist in nature...it's man made and it has caused far more pain and suffering than epo ever will. Alcohol is worse for you health than epo....if you know what you are doing with epo. Even a few drinks detroys brain cells and puts a toxic strain on the liver and body bro....but most of the world thinks it's OK to drink so it's socailly accepted.

Opium is natural but that doesn't mean you should use it.

My analogy in repspect to alchol was given just to help you realize that most people do not drinbk for self worth reasons...and most people do not dope for self worth reason.

Not everything will fook you up bro if you know what you are doing.....epo is very safe if you know what you are doing and it's a big IF.

Just because you inject epo doesn't make it worse than say something taken orally bro....everything gets into the blood stream.

You said>>>
"IMO it will only take a little more of a shift in the balance between clean and doped riders to see a dramatic effect in pro cycling. When clean riders are in the major majority rather than minority they will be more outspoken towards doping team mates and colleagues."

Well that's a nice ideation bro but the truth of the matter is it won't happen unless you take away the money from pro sport.
The pro's are getting smarter bro...only the risk takers like Ricco get caught.
Remember Lance?

RG


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Pure Blood
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Re: I have to laugh...

Posted by: kicking
All this nonsense back and forth about doping in cycling, not this thread in particular but in general, I just shake my head...

Bros, ALL sports are jacked. EVERY stadium sport in the USA is guilty.

At least pro cycling is trying to do something about it....

You are right and if you have a love of cycling you should be proud of the fact


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Pure Blood
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Posted by: Realgains
Bro.....I am trying to get you to think "out of the box" for a minute....out of the box created by the world of Freds....people that say it's OK to ingest caffeine or sleep in an altitude tent but not OK to use epo. There is a whole list of accepted drugs and things people do, that others cannot do or take, to get an edge....is that not doping?

RG

No its not, if you can't see the difference then...

Nothing I can say will change your mind.

Posted by: Realgains
Well that's a nice ideation bro but the truth of the matter is it won't happen unless you take away the money from pro sport.
The pro's are getting smarter bro...only the risk takers like Ricco get caught.
Remember Lance?

I think you are wrong, testers are getting smarter. They are getting new drugs straight from the manufacturers and as such are able to have tests ready for when the drugs enter the market. The ASO is VERY KEEN to test and target 'dubious' individuals probably more so than the UCI has been. Lets hope the two bodies can work together in the future with testing and blood passports. Next month or so we will see I guess.
There is no way Ricco was a risk taker he had a serious chance of being in line to win the tour within a couple of years. He would not have put that on the line by 'risk taking' He obviously thought or was badly advised that he would not get caught. After all the pro's arent drug smart, they are only as smart as the people advising them.
Lance was only so successful because he was constantly on the cutting edge and had access to the latest in pharmacutical research which was beyond the testers of the time (plus the money to take advantage of it) That is not the case now.

Matt

P.S Alcohol is natural, not man made. It is just fermented fruit or barley. Animals and insects get pissed on rotting fruit al the time in nature. And I am just off to sample some now Have a good weekend m8


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Realgains
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Topic starter  

Lance was blood doped with his own packed cells and so are the smart pro's. Ricco took a chance by using a new form of long acting epo that requires only 1-2 shots a week...but it is animal protein based....I sure the heck wouldn't have used it. Some thought that it would be safe but nobody was certain. Ricco sure the heck did take a chance bro....he should have used Dynepo, or simply blood doped with his own frozen packed cells....but he probably was not "set up" for this as it ain't easy to do.

I would like to add that he should have used Dynepo to offset a drop in retics, while blood doping with his own blood, and not the animal protein based CERA.
You can get away with animal protein based epo to offset a drop in retics but your dosing has to be super low and dialy right after morning controls....Ricco took too much and got popped.

Bro...unless you are 100% clean with no drugs of any kind in you(including caffeine) then you are doping to one degree or another.
Of course like "Eddy" said..."there is doping and then there is doping"....but it's still doping because you are not drug free.

Then there is gene doping bro....it has started!

Think about it really good bro>>>as long as millions are to be made in pro sport doping will continue. Here is the choice pro cyclists have to make.....be clean and retire poor or dope and maybe just maybe become rich like Lance. Ethics go out the door when you see no real future for yourself and your family.
The pro's will always jack bro $$$$$$$$$

If you had ever had a high hematocrit you will know that no so called gifted rider has a chance to beat a talented rider with a 55% crit...NO CHANCE AT ALL(save for a sprint, if he can make it to the sprint). If Lemond couldn't do it nobody can bro.
Lemond was epo free as was Fignon and other VERY talented riders in the early 90's and they all got their asses handed to them on a platter.

Bro...what do you think of using Novadex XT to boost your T to high normal values when it drops low due to hard prolonged training and racing? It's not on the banned list and all the ingredients found in this drug are natural and found in food. Think about it and get back to me.

Oh...one more question....do you think using an altitude tent to boost your crit to say 48%, or using a herb(yes herb) that I know of to boost your crit to 48%, or having the money and resources to live in a high mounatin village at 12,000 feet(to get a 50%) and training daily at 3000 feet gives an unfair advantage and is doping/ "cheating"?

Bro...there is never a "level playing field" and life is never "fair". Gee bro...just living in a developed country with an average income is an unfair advatage over many.

When money is at stake most people will sooner or latter bend their ethics. Heck...when pride is at stake people will do the same.

FYI
...a number of years ago I jacked on testosterone and Tren At bodybuilding doses and that was a blast too. Will I do it again?..no because it's too risky.

Good talking to you bro

Cheers

RG


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Wet Roubaix
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I cringed when I saw Pure's first post, thinking that it would invoke an avalanche of childish banter back and forth on the pros and cons of PED's.

Instead, all parties involved have taken the high road and kept this debate civilized and rather informative. I think that having RG set the tone with his in-depth, rational responses has really helped to keep things in check.

Welcome aboard, Pure. Feel free to respectfully disagree but, please, keep it sensible. Your responses have actually been very interesting and well thought out.

I look forward to the continuation of this discussion.

Cheers-
WR


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Pure Blood
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Posted by: Realgains
Lance was blood doped with his own packed cells and so are the smart pro's. Ricco took a chance by using a new form of long acting epo that requires only 1-2 shots a week...but it is animal protein based....I sure the heck wouldn't have used it. Some thought that it would be safe but nobody was certain. Ricco sure the heck did take a chance bro....he should have used Dynepo, or simply blood doped with his own frozen packed cells....but he probably was not "set up" for this as it ain't easy to do.

Well I wouldnt be surprised if Rico was receiving blood transfusions as well no? Is it not correct that EPO is used now in small doses as a masking agent for this by increasing your retic count?
Either way as we saw with Jan Ullrich if you are, or are close to being the best you are going to be scrutinised heavily and blood doping rings can and have been cracked. So really there is at present no real invisible and safe way to dope/cheat. Maybe in the future their will be gene splicing but this should still hopefully be countered by blood passports.

Posted by: Realgains
Bro...what do you think of using Novadex XT to boost your T to high normal values when it drops low due to hard prolonged training and racing? It's not on the banned list and all the ingredients found in this drug are natural and found in food. Think about it and get back to me.

Don't know an amazing amount about it is the honest answer. What I do know is that even used on its own you risk testing positive for elevated test levels dont you? So what is the point of it if you competing.
I imagine it is the HPTA upregulating effects that help the body to restore and normalize natural testosterone output and levels in the body for post-cycle therapy after doping (legally) that is a big interest for a lot of people..
Personally I wouldnt touch anything that is going to override my body's ability to maintain homeostasis. But hey thats just me and I like my hair and my sex drive to much to go messing around with it

Posted by: Realgains
Oh...one more question....do you think using an altitude tent to boost your crit to say 48%, or using a herb(yes herb) that I know of to boost your crit to 48%, or having the money and resources to live in a high mounatin village at 12,000 feet(to get a 50%) and training daily at 3000 feet gives an unfair advantage and is doping/ "cheating"?

No I don't think high altitude training is cheating. Oxygen tents, hmmm do they really aid performance to any noticible degree. Possibly a good way to aid recovery after injury, but I dont think even this is proven is it. So no in answer to your question nothing against them either.

The thing with all of these natural methods of raising your crit is that the effects wear off reasonably quickly. You put in the hard work at high altitude then you reap some benefits for a few days. Reaching into your medicine cabinet and grabbing a syringe full of steroid to get the same affect WHENEVER you want and WHEREVER you are is not acceptable.

I will ask you one question back if I may.

If you were a professional cyclist and there was an 80% chance that you would get caught for doping if indeed you were. Would you still do it? Do you think that 20% chance of making it to the top undetected is worth it when weighed up against a lifetime ban in the sport, prosecution by the police, financial ruin, and total humiliation in the eyes of your supporters and peers?

Ok past midnight for me in the UK so Id best go climb into my 02 tank and get some zzzzzz's

P.S Yeah there is never a level playing field in most things in life. However there are some fine riders coming through from 'underdeveloped' countries. And why? Because they have everything to gain by being successful and are willing to work twice as hard in training to get a better standard of living. Be a real travisty if they did all that hard work only to be beaten by some lazy doping westerner dont you think Last edited by Pure Blood on 07-19-2008 at 12:33 AM


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Pure Blood
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Posted by: Wet Roubaix
I
Welcome aboard, Pure. Feel free to respectfully disagree but, please, keep it sensible. Your responses have actually been very interesting and well thought out.

I look forward to the continuation of this discussion.

Cheers-
WR

Cheers WR it's kinda nice to be here. Feel like Im Anakin Skywalker getting an introduction to the dark side

There will be no Vader this time tho


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Realgains
(@realgains)
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Posts: 161
Topic starter  

Yes bro...epo is used as an agent to stimulate retic formation/release after blood doping with your own blood...which shuts down retic release. UCI isn't going to like a super low retic count...that tells them you are blood doping.
The epo of choice to offset the drop in retics is Dynepo(human identical). Very small micro doses IV of animal based epo's can be used right after morning controls, but if you go too high BINGO you are busted.
I have a feeling that Ricco was just on micro doses of CERA and perhaps didn't blood dope, because he liked to use the excuse that he had a 51 crit since he was a kid. But then again it makes sense that he "supplemented" with his own frozen red cells after morning controls to get say a 55-60% crit.....and that's why he climbed like a madman.
You can siphon off that extra blood and store it safely before bed so you pass morning controls again...then re-infuse after controls with a blood pump. So for sleeping and morning controls you are at a safe 50% and then during the stage you are at 55-60%. It's not easy to do but it isn't rocket science.

quote:


Either way as we saw with Jan Ullrich if you are, or are close to being the best you are going to be scrutinised heavily and blood doping rings can and have been cracked. So really there is at present no real invisible and safe way to dope/cheat. Maybe in the future their will be gene splicing but this should still hopefully be countered by blood passports.


Yes there is bro.....the only reason Basso and Ullrich got caught was because someone blew the whistle on them ...a very freaky bad turn of events that is like one in a million chance.
The "Passport" can easily be passed bro....just stay the same level of jackness(crit) all year long..and right at 50%...a nice safe healthy level

...and bro....there is shit out there that almost nobody knows about and is certainly not tested for. ie: Ferrari knows a lot bro and that's why Lance spent so much time with him. You don't go from getting your ass kicked in the tour to being a freaking unstopable machine for 7 years simply by training harder and loosing 12 pounds.

quote:


Don't know an amazing amount about it is the honest answer. What I do know is that even used on its own you risk testing positive for elevated test levels dont you? So what is the point of it if you competing.
I imagine it is the HPTA upregulating effects that help the body to restore and normalize natural testosterone output and levels in the body for post-cycle therapy after doping (legally) that is a big interest for a lot of people..
Personally I wouldnt touch anything that is going to override my body's ability to maintain homeostasis. But hey thats just me and I like my hair and my sex drive to much to go messing around with it


No it won't raise T "that" high bro...nor will it scew your T to epi T ratio. It does a good thing for you>>>the hard training reduces LH release from the pituitary....this compound normalizes that and give a little extra boost beyond your normal by reducing estrogen a bit.
Now would you try it?

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No I don't think high altitude training is cheating. Oxygen tents, hmmm do they really aid performance to any noticible degree. Possibly a good way to aid recovery after injury, but I dont think even this is proven is it. So no in answer to your question nothing against them either.

Bro....the world has messed with your reasoning...the FREDS the Media >>> of course it's cheating bro because it's an unfair advantage....isn't that what cheating really is? Just because it's not on the banned list doesn't mean it isn't cheating.
Don't listen to "the world of FREDS" bro.
I do believe that altitude tents have now been banned in Italy.

Bro...the altitude tents don't give you extra O2...that's hyperberic chambers...which are also cheating in the recovery department because access them is extremely limited and expensive. Altutude tents are hypoxic tents...they reduce the amount of O2 you get at night to simulate sleeping at high altitude. They raise your epo levels and increase crit(in an unnatural manner) and they are cheating. There is NO difference between raining your crit with an altitude tent or with epo bro...think about it. The only diff is with an altitude tent you are lucky to get a 48% crit.....but raising your natural crit even one point beyond it's natural level is still cheating....if the other guys don't have this advantage too.

quote:


The thing with all of these natural methods of raising your crit is that the effects wear off reasonably quickly. You put in the hard work at high altitude then you reap some benefits for a few days. Reaching into your medicine cabinet and grabbing a syringe full of steroid to get the same affect WHENEVER you want and WHEREVER you are is not acceptable.


No bro...they are no different in their affect or "lasting power" than blood doping or epo use. By the way you can't actually train at altitude because you can't get a proper workout...the trick is to live and sleep at altitude and come down to 3000 feet to train.

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I will ask you one question back if I may.

If you were a professional cyclist and there was a 80% chance that you would get caught for doping if indeed you were. Would you still do it? Do you think that 20% chance of making it to the top undetected is worth it when weighed up against financial ruin, humiliation and total disgrace in the eyes of your supporters and peers?


Heck no...the odds would have to be very close to 100%....and I could do it no probs bro....Lance did it and many others have too. You just have to know what you are doing and have the resources to do it.

quote:


P.S Yeah there is never a level playing field in most things in life. However there are some fine riders coming through from 'underdeveloped' countries. And why? Because they have everything to gain by being successful and are willing to work twice as hard in training to get a better standard of living. Be a real travisty if they did all that hard work only to be beaten by some lazy doping westerner don't you think

Maybe a few bro but in reality the riders from developing countries are jacked more than the riders in the west(on average). You have to have some money to be able to race a bike in developing countries so these people are not poor....and epo is readily available in developing countries(for sale that is). Also, if you have the "money" you can buy your way out of almost anything.

PS....
Damn I had FUN FUN FUN last Summer jacked on epo and I only raced once and didn't even try to win.... first cycle in many years. I had a BLAST kicking the butts of some really cocky and nasty elite Cat 1 guys in some REALLY hard group rides though. I did get punished buy two epo jacked riders that I know though ...one a pro and one national level amateur....but they were nice about it ....Maybe I'll do another cycle to a nice safe 50% next Spring...beats the hell out of my 40% he he he.

Cheers bro.....and I'll get you to try Nolvedex XT yet ...wouldn't it be great to have the T you had when you were 19 and not having it drop(and wrecking your sex life and recovery ability) with hard training

RG


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