Milk Thistle vs. Liv 52
Ok I have used both and didn't find a difference in either of them. But iv heard Milk Thistle hinders gains. I doubt it but what do you guys think?
doubt it henders your gains, but i dont think milk thistle has a proven study to actually reduce liver stress, you'll be better off with liv52
liv52 is the definite choice. Proven to work for a very long time. The formula was invented long before most of were even a twinkle in our mothers eye!
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he today that sheds his
blood with me, Shall be my brother"
PLEASE Do Not ask me for sources!
i have had high liver problems and after 4 weeks on milk thistle it had reduced my liver issues so i can say it does the job , as for liv 52 never tried it
I would say LIV52 is a better choice for me. I dont think Milk thistle hinders gains but i do think LIV52 is somewhat better at improving liver functions.
There are no studies proving milk thistle removes the toxins from your liver. I only run Liv52.
just did a google search, there are dozens of studies proving milk thistle's ability to remove toxins from the liver and also proving it's ability to repare damage done by alchoholism and so on. milk thistle is all i've ever used and it works well for me. There were far to many clinical trials for me to start quoting them, just do a google search and see for yourselves
As far as I know, both Milk Thistle and Liv-52 work well for liver protection. I've heard people claim that Milk Thistle can decrease the strength of oral steroids because it filters the steroid out of the liver, but that would most likely be true of all real liver aides. Milk Thistle, or more specifically Sylibin, inhibits phase 1 and phase 2 enzymes (Cytochromes P450 3A4 AND 2C9). That basically means that it can decrease your body's ability to protect itself against certain carcinogens (they cause tumors) and it can decrease the synthesis of cholesterol in the liver. The whole idea of Milk Thistle decreasing the effectiveness of steroids probably comes from the fact that it inhibits Glutathione. Glutathione is an antioxidant that is important for stopping free radicals and keeping homocysteine levels reasonable. It is also important for the detoxification of methylglyoxal, which is a nasty product of the body's metabolism; that's probably the reason that some people feel sick to their stomach after using Milk Thistle for a while. Homocysteine levels are measured to predict your chances of heart disease and stroke. Homocysteine levels increase rapidly after stopping a steroid cycle too. Despite all of this though, I think Milk Thistle really is a good filter for the liver. I think that all of the negative effects from the Sylibin are probably very small and may not even occur in everyone that uses it. I would recommend using Milk Thistle as liver protection even though I personally like Liv-52 more. *Using B12 can help keep homocyseine levels low too.
My brother went to Chile for New Year's and got Hepatitis A from drinking contaminated water; I told him it was from wearing his wife's ass as a hat. His doctor told him to use Milk Thistle to help his liver get rid of the infection. So that has to mean that Milk Thistle does something.
Came accross this old thread because it comes up high on Google search for 'Milk Thistle versus Liv.52' So I thought it would be worth adding to the thread for anyone else who stumbles across it.
I've researched thoroughly both Milk Thistle and Liv.52. I realize this is a body builder forum. I've read all the posts here and read about 20+ clinical studies related to these subjects. Here's my conclusions for what they are worth:
1. Both Milk Thistle (or Sylmarin extract) and Liv.52 appear to have hepoprotective properties - they help protect your liver from damage.
2. Liv.52 is an Indian Herbal concoction consisting of serveral herbs none of which are Milk Thistle. Milk Thistle supplements do not have any of the herbs that Liv.52 does so they appear to be completely different supplements.
3. Liv.52 has much more 'hype' surrounding it. It's a brand. The primary clinical studies showing its benefit, especially the one that shows it is more effective than Milk Thistle were commissioned by the company that makes Liv.52. However there are other independent studies confirming it's efficacy.
4. There appears (in my research) to be more clinical studies from accredited, independent institutions regarding Milk Thistle and it's derivatives including Sylmarin extract and silybin phytosome (aka silybin Phosphatydilcholine). It's a generic herb, not a brand, like Liv.52.
5. In my judgement, probably the most effective supplement for liver protection would be one with silybin phytosome, sold under names like Maximum Milk Thistle and Siliphos. The reason is because the bioavailability of silybin phytosome is nearly 8 times that of regular Milk Thistle sylmarin extract. I believe if Liv.52 had any edge on Milk Thistle, it would be negated if not surpassed by silybin phytosome.
6. The conclusions of studies of Liv-52 are much more contradictory than Milk Thistle. One example is this study which states "Liv 52, an Ayurvedic hepatoprotective agent, is not useful in the management of alcohol-induced liver disease. "
Herbal medicines for liver diseases.
Where this study concludes "We conclude that Liv-52 possess hepatoprotective effect in cirrhotic patients. This protective effect of Liv-52 can be attributed to the diuretic, anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidative, and immunomodulating properties of the component herbs. "
ScienceDirect - Phytomedicine : The efficacy of Liv-52 on liver cirrhotic patients: A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled first approach
I find the contradictory evidence troublesome. While I still believe Liv.52 definitely has hepoprotective efficacy to some degree, I agree with the statement in one study which said "Standardization of herbal medicines has been a problem and prospective, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials are lacking to support their efficacy. The methodological qualities of clinical trials of treatment with herbal preparations are poor. "
7. I see a lot of that Liv.52 stuff being sold on E-bay for dirt cheap. Is it the real thing? How come drugstore.com or Rite Aid doesn't sell it? These things bring up yellow (not red) flags for me. Milk Thistle supplements are widely available just about anywhere.
8. It appears Liv.52 was withdrawn from the market at some point. This study in Nov 2004 stated "LIV.52 has been withdrawn from the market because of deleterious effects in patients with liver disease."
Use of herbal supplements for chronic liver diseas...[Clin Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2004] - PubMed Result
I'm not a doctor, just a reader. You can make your own decision. Based on the evidence I'd choose to take sylibin phytosome instead of Liv.52. It also has documented anti-cancer properties which is a bonus. Tons of articles to read on it here:
Milk Thistle Cancer: Health Information from Peer Reviewed Scientific Research Reports
Finally, I have one big question. In reading all the posts here, no matter what people are using, they saying something like "xxx works great for me."
I'm really curious how one determines if Live.52 or Milk Thistle is "working for you" ??? These are essentially liver tonic supplements. There is no, that I know of, direct physical effect that you can see or feel from taking these things. You need to run blood tests to see if they are working or not. So how are people determining for sure if it is working for them or not? Does your liver feel better or something? I think not. When you are taking so many other supplements or drugs I would think it is essentially impossible to accurately determine how effective these things are without a blood test. Otherwise it's simply whether one choose to BELIEVE it is working or not, even though it may actually be having effect, everyone is essentially just guessing - unless they are getting blood tests.
I will not assume who is and who isn't getting blood tests although I know body builders do get blood tests sometimes. If that were the case though I would have expected some of the posts to state blood test results.
as a supplement you cant really tell if its doing well of course unless you monitor you liver.
But when someone has increased liver enzymes the only way to know that is by getting a blood test so obviously blood testing is done.
many of times i have had increased liver enzymes out of liv52 and milk thistle , for me milk thistle has been most effective , thats just my 2c.
I also would tend to agree that milk thistle is probably the best way to go. It has a good history of proving in many studies that it effectively helps the liver get rid of toxins, and it also has a powerful antioxidant. It's often used when there is liver disease of some sort, so I would say it's proven itself pretty well.