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Hrt & Hcg

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(@jwtex)
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Joined: 2 years ago
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HCG - clomid question. I have been on Hormone Replacement Therapy for almost 3 1/2 years. I am 57 years young and have worked out at least 3 times a week for the last 45 years. I had never done steroids before my doctor put me on HRT for anti-aging purposes. My Doctor has me on 1 IU of GH daily (6 on 1 off) and ¾ cc of Depo-Testosterone(200 mg) every five - seven days. My blood test show IGF levels of 490-520 and my Total Testosterone levels range between 950-1450, free between 35-48. I am 5-8 and weigh 205 with about 11-14% body fat. I feel great, I am getting bigger and stronger, and my cardio fitness has greatly improved. I am having only one problem, and that is the “shrinking NUT syndrom” as they are now the same size as they were when I was 12 years old. My doctors has never put me any type on/off cycle or prescribed HCG or Clomid. I have tried to find some answers in the other post but they mostly address anabolic cycles, not long term therapy. Does anyone have any suggestion on some type of on/off cycle or how much and how often I should take HCG without getting off my Test injections? Your help would be greatly appreciated. I had posted this question on the Cycle Board but I received no replies. THANKS GUYS!


   
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Richard Power
(@richard-power)
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Your HRT therapy seems to be at an excellent level for preservation and further development. The lenght of time you've been on HRT is enough, by far, to cause nut shrinkage. The correct therapy is HCG. Clomid will NOT, REPEAT WILL NOT, have any effect on your problem no matter what you do. That is, going off HRT completely and taking clomid may not even restore the nuts at this point. I am not an MD. I not an endocrinologist. Your MD is irresponsible in allowing this to proceed as your describe, although the other results are superb, as you know. I would follow this plan: 5KIU HCG/d for 3 days (three shots), then 5KIU HCG/3d for 9 days (three more shots), then 5KIU HCG/5d until full adult teticular size recovered or mildly exceeded. Continue HCG throughout the entire period of HRT, but at an average level not over about 500mg/d for the longer term. Remember the half-life is only about 2.5 days. You will find that HCG normally restores testicular size and, over a longer time, promotes the growth of the supporting structures so that they tend to hang quite a bit lower than may have been your experience. Not everyone will experience this due to varying degrees of sexual maturation during puberty. In any case, HCG should bring them to their fulll mature poptential and keep them that way, even when using HRT. Once the nuts start looking like balls again, take the clomid. A good introductory schedule is: 150mg 2xd for 1 day 100lmg 2xd for 1 day 50mg 2xd forever after These relatively high doses are needed for clomid to be effedtive in maintainting some HPTA function when lots of exogenous AAS is around. And you'll still need occasional HCG. There is an open question as to whether it is better to nuke the balls with HCG occasionally (like every 3 months or so) or to provide steady, lower rate stimulation. Some claim, though I haven't seen much evidence, that chronic administartion of HCG will eventually induce dependence. It's hard to worry too much about this, because, with HRT in place at effective levels, you're going to be HCG dependent no matter what you do. Do not even consider getting off the test injections. HCG will be effective while you are taking test. If you are really really worried, stop the test, use the hcg, and continue with clomid, but this is probably unnecessary. Some will disagree with me about the amount of HCG to take, omitting the first three shots of 5KIU a day as too much. You can certainly try less and may get all the results you need.


   
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(@jwtex)
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Topic starter  

Thanks Richard!!! This is exactly what I was looking for. I will see my Doc next week and get him to give me a scrip for HCG and hopefully Clomid. He has shown some reluctance to prescribe this to me. Did I understand from your post that I am to take 500 IU’s every day after I have regained my normal size or do I start a new HCG cycle when my testes start showing sign of atrophy? Again thanks for you help.


   
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Richard Power
(@richard-power)
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I would start by seeing how often I have to hit them with HCG to maintain full desired size. Although it is thought by some to be best to take HCG every day, that's a terrible lot of shots, since it is given IM. For maintenance, try 1000 IU eod. It may be more than you need. It is unlikely to be less. You can see if 500 IU eod will do the trick. It may well, but since the stuff comes in 1K, 2.5K, 5K and 10K packages, it's a bit awkward to spread it out so far and IT MUST BE REFRIGERATED AFTER RECONSTITUTING. After you have recovered FULLY with HCG, you will find your balls likely overstimulated or high stimulated. This will die down over a few days and you can assess progress and futures. You may choose to stay in a (relatively) high state of stimulation (requires more HCG) or shoot for "normal", which should require only occasional HCG. The problem is that it's easy to tell when the HCG is becoming less active, but almost impossible to tell the early signs of atrophy, hence my bias towards more rather than less HCG. But this is also an age-related decision. What I would consider doing at age 61 after procreating and raising two kids to adulthood might be different from what a much younger (~30-40) person would want to consider if they have not had kids. HCG normally increases fertility; however, in combination with AAS there may be strange effects. Sometimes the balls come back, but are relatively infertile. This is treated with a different hormone, called HMH (human menopausal hormone) and other names, and is usually successful, especially if AAS is withdrawn to minimal levels (use a very well constructed plan for gains maintenance). Historical clinical evidence shows that HRT suppresses sperm production and moderate AAS can induce temporary sterility. Fortunately, the evidence also indicates that recovery of fertility is fairly straightforward, though requiring some time. Most men will be MORE FERTILE AFTER AAS than they were before. But 3.5 years is a long time to be shut down. What is totally unknown is whether AAS taken by the father can induce abnormalities in a normally conceived fetus, especially during AAS usage (assuming some continuing fertility--it doesn't take but one). This would have been a ridiculous suggestion 10 years ago, and is probably untrue, but a lot of strange things have been turning up in reproductive medicine recently, including the fact that some things about fathers can be passed to offspring outside the simple genetic inheritance we all learned about in high school. Your MD may prefer to refer you to an endocrinologist or fertility expert rather than prescribe HCG himself. The suggested use of clomid is "off label" and an average MD will NOT prescribe it for this purpose if they haven't previously gained experience with it. An endo likely will prescribe it. Clomid is unregulated and can be purchased as a lab chemical (not graded for human consumption) in liquid form from several US suppliers, such as LiquidResearch, which is a sponsor of this web site. I would rather have the pharmaceutical grade stuff, but that isn't always an option... Once you get this sorted out you should be able to look forward to an excellent experience with normal or super-normal balls. We'd like to hear how it works out for you.


   
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TESTinME
(@testinme)
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Joined: 2 years ago
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Hey jwtex, I just started HRT a few weeks ago and had the same problem with nut shrinkage. Luckily my HRT doc was willing to prescribe HCG. A day or so after my first HCG shot, I started to notice a difference in nut size as well as how I was feeling overall. Here's a link to a discussion on HCG & HRT on another board. 2 HRT doc's post some good info on HCG on this thread. Check it out: http://www.steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15841


   
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Richard Power
(@richard-power)
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A genuinely fascinating look at what's going on in a different community. The Swale postings at the end are especially good, though, as an MD (as he says), he's very conservative in dosages. There is, unfortunately, an astounding amount of misinformation (stated quite arrogantly, I might add) mixed in with reasonable stuff in the earler part of the thread. Points out the need to get multiple sources of information, not believe everything you read, and draw your own reasoned conclusions once you have all the information.


   
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TESTinME
(@testinme)
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Originally posted by Richard Power There is, unfortunately, an astounding amount of misinformation (stated quite arrogantly, I might add) mixed in with reasonable stuff in the earler part of the thread. RP, I would love it if you could expand on this and let us know what you think was misinformation and what was not. You have a wealth of knowledge yourself and I would like to know your opinions on this thread.


   
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Richard Power
(@richard-power)
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I haven't time to review this in detail right now and would consider it impolite (by Bolex standards of behavior) to dump on individuals sbuscribing to another board. It makes me (us) mad as hell if someone starts down this path picking at something on Bolex. That said, I'll still look it over to see if there's anything that seems especially significant. Are you the TESTinME that posted there? Or am I imagining that? I can at least (privately) tell you if I disagree with you or the person you're arguing with. Most of the time you can't both be right...


   
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TESTinME
(@testinme)
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RP, Yep, I am the same TESTinME that started the thread over there. Please shoot me a PM when you have some time to let me know what you think of the thread. I didn't argue with anyone over there, just was looking for different opinions about HRT and HCG. When I started HRT, I really didn't want to have to do any more shots because I don't particularly like them. After a couple of weeks being on HRT, I decided to try HCG @ 250 mg 2x per week. So far I feel better using the HCG and my balls are normal size. Thx


   
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blackshoes8
(@blackshoes8)
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Is it true that HCG will downgrade receptors in the testes? Some say to go ahead and use 1500 iu's in a shot, others say to use no more than 500 to 750 and not more than 10 days. What's the deal?


   
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(@mustique)
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Joined: 2 years ago
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I have an old bottle of HCG I mixed up about 3 or 4 months ago. It says to use it in a month once mixed. It has been kept in the fridge. Anybody have experience using old HCG like this. MY testicles could use some size as they have atrophied a bit on my current cycle. Or should I just not be cheap and buy some new HCG.


   
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Richard Power
(@richard-power)
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The 4 month old HCG is surely useless, even though refrigerated. On the other hand, if it is definitely still sterile, I'd probably use it anyway, but get some new to follow on with. You can usually feel HCG quickly if you use 5IU/d for 3 days, then less. If you use this much of the old and get no discernible effect, then it was gone. I have seen nothing in experience or evidence to suggest that HCG downgrades receptors. I think this is likely to be pure speculation based on the theory that anything from outside the body will affect +receptors. This is not true for a wide range of drugs that maintain effectiveness over long periods of chronic use. I suspect it is not true of HCG. I have used HCG very regularly for 18+ months with no sign of receptor effects. OF course, people vary and I took other stuff at he same time.


   
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(@jwtex)
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Joined: 2 years ago
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Topic starter  

Richard, my Dr. has given me a script for HCG but has used the following protocol; 500 IU every day for 14 days then 250 IU every day for the next 14 days. He then wants me to use twice a week at 250 -500 IU. I have been on for one week and have not noticed any increase in size or additional output. How much time do you think it will be before results are noticed using this protocol?


   
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Richard Power
(@richard-power)
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I never used such a small dose, although if you're not taking a lot of AAS for HRT, it may well be adequate, just slow acting. Results are relatively slow at first. You typically feel a little "tingly" in the spermatic cords and suspensory ligaments of the testes as the HCG starts to have an effect. This could be several days or weeks. After this, there seems to be a gradual acceleration of effect. Basic size recovery is usually fairly prompt (though I don't know about those low doses) occurring in a few weeks at most. If HCG is continued beyond this point, the testes will continue to enlarge, but not a great deal. The spermatic cords and ligaments lengthen under HCG, so after six months or so you should be hanging much lower than you have ever experienced, with some compensatory growth in testicle size. My advice is to try the MD script for a few weeks. If you haven't got significant improvement in 2 months, jt should at least be doubled. 500IU is a good daily amount for regular supplementation. Kick-starting the system after years of HRT will require much more. Recommend 5000 IU/d for 3-5 days, then 5000 IU e3d for 9-15 days, then 200O IU eod for a few weeks followed by 1000 IU eod (the level you're getting from the MD) if things have gotten back to normal. While some growth and recovery will take place at 500IU/d, it will be reluctant. Short and even long term doses much higher are used in preadolescents to treat cryptorchisim (undescended testicle). Fixing the endpoints of long term HRT require similar strong treatments. You can get HCG from sources for about $4 per 1000IU. I recommend it as a cost well justified at whatever level you need to function well. The only truly meaningful test of the correct level and success of HCG therapy is the benefit to you, personally. Your dosage should be adjusted up or down to provide at least the minimum to meet your needs. Since your physcial condition and other AAS usage are obviously top-quality, HCG may be the one thing you are missing from your program. You probably need the clomid, too, especially when taking HCG.


   
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