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Time period in which exogenous GH shuts down endogenous release->nandi,others PLEASE

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Supergirl
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Posted by: notatrase
Thank you, SG for your response!
My knowledge-gathering is almost complete, but new questions have arisen as consequence of Nandi's comments regarding increased clearance time when used in conjunction to insulin.
Everyone seems to believe that insulin is an ESSENTIAL addition to a GH cycle--that the full potential of GH cannot be had in insulin's absence; I guess it is thought of as somewhat of an essential synergism.

What is your take, guys?
Perhaps if I go into my goals, you will better be able to advise me.
Let us say that I, in theory, were coming off of a cycle of:
50mg tren/day (100mg/day at start of cycle)
25mg Test Prop/day
75mg winny/day
5gm of andractim/day

Using GH (and maybe ins as a LONG bridge), I would like to stay lean and stay at about the same bodyweight and muscularity (if possible). I am not TOO far above my genetic potential.
I am following a CKD, similar to that of JGUNS (THANKS, JG!!).

Now, based on my goals, can you suggest a best method of administration?
Can the diet remain the same, or should I alter it in any ways to accomodate the GH?
I will begin taking it during post-cycle recovery; will Nolvadex hinder its effects? Suggestions?
Based on my goals, should insulin be added (I assume that it will be necessary to maintain muscle fullness in the absence of androgens, yes?)?

So far, this is what i am thinking: What would you guys change?
6:00am wake up-->1iu GH
6:30am workout
7:30am-------------->a few iu insulin (please know that I am exp.with ins) (IS this too soon after the GH inj?)

9-10pm bedtime--->1iu GH

slin is necessary if you want to grow.. it is NOT necessary if you only want to maintain or receive fat loss or theraputic results...

ALso you need to consider that your gh will not really work too much the first month.. It really kicks in more like the 2nd and well into the 3rd.. a longer run is necessary, so you may want to run gh at the beginning of your cycle so when you come off and it is time to bridge, the gh is potent and will keep ya in perfect shape Basically that running your cycle with gh will help to make more permanant changes and then when you come off it will really help to keep what you gained...

The Nolv should not affect your gh.. Nolv suppresses estrogen, not gh, BUT Nandi would probably know this answer better than me...

*like Fonz said) The 2x shots will keep levels more constant and perhaps still allow for your natural gh to be released..

You will need to increase your carbs a bit... gh metabolizes carbs big time and you can even become hypoglycemic if you don't have enough.. ESP with slin!!
So bring up your carbs a bit (ie: complex; baked pot, oatmeal, long grain brown rice etc)

Hope i got them all

Disclaimer: yadda, yadda, yadda
Keeping it real
"I'm doin' a hundred on the highway
So if you do the speed limit, get the FUCK outta my way"

"The human body never ceases to amaze me. It is a brilliant machine, despite that fact that the majority of its owners are complete morons." (courtesy of monkeyballs)


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notatrase
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Posted by: Supergirl
slin is necessary if you want to grow.. it is NOT necessary if you only want to maintain or receive fat loss or theraputic results...

ALso you need to consider that your gh will not really work too much the first month.. It really kicks in more like the 2nd and well into the 3rd.. a longer run is necessary, so you may want to run gh at the beginning of your cycle so when you come off and it is time to bridge, the gh is potent and will keep ya in perfect shape Basically that running your cycle with gh will help to make more permanant changes and then when you come off it will really help to keep what you gained...

The Nolv should not affect your gh.. Nolv suppresses estrogen, not gh, BUT Nandi would probably know this answer better than me...

*like Fonz said) The 2x shots will keep levels more constant and perhaps still allow for your natural gh to be released..

You will need to increase your carbs a bit... gh metabolizes carbs big time and you can even become hypoglycemic if you don't have enough.. ESP with slin!!
So bring up your carbs a bit (ie: complex; baked pot, oatmeal, long grain brown rice etc)

Hope i got them all

SG, the reason I asked about nolvadex is because it is known to lower IGF-1, so I am wondering if my post-cycle recovery regimen will have a negative impact on the effects of the GH.

Since I am coming off now though, SG, I take it that I should begin with taking the GH with insulin at least for the first month since I have not already begun the GH, right?
Also, are you saying Gh, by itself, could maintain my muscle mass/leanness on its own if it were already built up in my system?

Thank you, guys


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notatrase
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bump


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Supergirl
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Posted by: notatrase
SG, the reason I asked about nolvadex is because it is known to lower IGF-1, so I am wondering if my post-cycle recovery regimen will have a negative impact on the effects of the GH.

Since I am coming off now though, SG, I take it that I should begin with taking the GH with insulin at least for the first month since I have not already begun the GH, right?
Also, are you saying Gh, by itself, could maintain my muscle mass/leanness on its own if it were already built up in my system?

Thank you, guys

well gh has a tendency that when stacked with an aas to create more permanant gains and once it is in your system YES it will help to maintain them... i always keep my lbm, even when i am dieting i tend to hold onto more muscle than not...

But yes.. i think you should get the gh into your system before your bridge so that it is very active...

Disclaimer: yadda, yadda, yadda
Keeping it real
"I'm doin' a hundred on the highway
So if you do the speed limit, get the FUCK outta my way"

"The human body never ceases to amaze me. It is a brilliant machine, despite that fact that the majority of its owners are complete morons." (courtesy of monkeyballs)


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Miracle Man
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OK, I have been asked to put some of my input on this thread. Let's try to look at GH from three different perspectives. A pediatric use, adult usage and a fitness usage.

In each of the three categories in question,HGH therapy is used much differently based upon the ultimate goal of usage. How many people on this board self administer human growth hormone and are actually being diagnosed with adult growth hormone deficiency? How many people here have also gotten their IGF-1 levels measured at all? Most of the people that I speak too, approximately 90% never checked their IGF-1 levels to get a baseline reading. Most of them have no idea that IGF-1 and Hgh usage have a medical correlation. Scary.

The ultimate goal in HGH therapy in a pediatric arena is for the children to grow in height. Most if not all of these children are so severely growth hormone deficient, without HGH therapy, they will never grow. The medical community in this case will suggest to the parent(s) to inject their GH at night to mimic the natural pulse release of growth hormone into the body. IGF-1 levels are measured based upon the baseline reading of this test result, the physician will appropriately administer growth hormone based on those levels. So the doctors are trying to mimic growth hormone release synthetically where the body is lacking to do it on its own. We all know that.

Once we become adults and the growing process stops, growth hormone therapy takes on a whole new picture. As we grow older, we all know that our IGF-1 levels will slowly deplete over the age of 30. On a healthy normal person, your body will produce some growth hormone, not as much as if you were 20 years old, but your body will naturally produce a minimal amount. Most of the time your IGF-1 levels will be in the normal range but on the low end of the scale. This is also age defined. Some of us will actually fall below the criteria of what normal range is for acceptable IGF-1 levels. Once this occurs then you are clinically diagnosed with adult growth hormone deficiency. There is no cookie-cutter approach to growth hormone usage. If you are a normal healthy adult you will produce a normal to low amount of growth hormone naturally, why would you synthetically inject growth hormone at night to potentially shut down your endogenous release of natural growth hormone. The key to usage of growth hormone in adults is to maintain your IGF-1 levels at all times.

We all know the majority of your growth hormone release is in the evening, but what about during the course of the day? This is why the usage of short-acting growth hormone is best used during the course of the day to increase and maintain your IGF-1 levels at all times. Let your body at night take over and your natural production of growth hormone will take over in the evening. You will still benefit from this in many ways. You will still sleep and recover from post-workout routines. Increasing and maintaining your IGF-1 levels at all times should be applied not only to body building, physical fitness, endurance athletes, life extension and all other aspects of physical activity. There is no need to mimic a pulse release of growth hormone in the evening like in the pediatric arena. We are not looking to grow in height. It is often misunderstood when they say to "Mimic a pulse release in the evening for tissue growth", they are referring to skeletal tissue growth not muscle tissue growth. We cannot apply pediatric usage of growth hormone to adults it's like comparing apples and bananas. Especially in BB.

Centergenics which is one of the largest life extension's medical facilities in the world that uses growth hormone in adults and prescribes it during the course of the day, not the evening. You are not able to achieve a steady state of IGF-1 levels during the course of the day if you inject at night. Spreading out the injections from pharmacokinetic perspective will give you more of a steady state versus a dramatic spike in drug concentration. Let's not try to make this more difficult than what it really is. Baseline testing of IGF-1 levels is critical for everyone. How are you able to self administer human growth hormone without knowing what you're natural IGF-1 levels are? Shooting from the hip is not the answer.

Taking an anti-estrogen post the cycle while on human growth hormone is ok. You will approximately decreased your IGF-1 levels by 18%. Taking an anti-estrogen post cycle will not negate your usage of growth hormone. Some have suggested to actually increase your usage of growth hormone by 20% to offset the loss. Now some people are unable to do this because cost is a factor.

In my opinion the only way to achieve a steady state of IGF-1 levels in adults if using a short-acting growth hormone is one or two injections during the course of the day. If you use two injections per day, spread out the injections six to seven hours apart. The half-life of the average short-acting agent is approximately three to four hours. Some people feel that one injection during the course today is sufficient. Also the medical community has admitted that is very difficult to say what is the best time to check your IGF-1 levels.

My suggestion is that any time you do check your IGF-1 levels, try to be consistent on the time and day of testing from the previous test. I am not trying to sell anything but I am taking Nutropin depot, the only long acting human growth hormone on the market. I intake my entire months usage in one injection. Yes, I only inject once per month. I have been on this for almost one year now and this product is clearly superior to any other human growth hormone on the market. The delivery system is what defines it and separates it from the rest. I even have my wife on it. IGF-1 levels have increased almost 100% and a steady state of IGF-1 is maintained at all times. I clearly will never use any other growth hormone but this one.

If you can afford, it I am a clear proponent of Hgh usage. I also feel using human growth hormone with AAS will yield in permanent gains, vs. using AAS alone. I have a very sophisticated machine here at my house that measures cellular activity as well as body fat percentage.

BIA 450 is the machine I own.

This web site also defines each parameter of testing. All I can tell you is since I started using growth hormone with my cycles, all my cellular levels have maintained very high post cycle. Even 1 year post AAS cycle. The potential of using less AAS will yield in fewer long-term side effects and health risks I feel. i am not saying i will never use AAS again. That is not the case. Unless you are a professional bodybuilder looking to make this a career, then that theory will be thrown out the window.

This is my feedback, if you have a difference of opinion, thats fine. But all I ask of you is not to personally attacked me. To me that is a sign of inmaturity, a lack of respect and intelligence.

I rarely post on this board so please do not rate me based on my number of postings. Supergirl and Nadi I have the highest respect for and truly enjoy their vast knowledge and input as well.


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plato
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I am on board with the AM dosing vs night time.

What effects does eating especially carbs & insulin raising from this have on GH?

Should you wait to take it at least 1hr after carbs, and limit carbs for how long after you administer?? Or doesn't it matter?


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notatrase
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Posted by: Nandi12
The human response to exogenous GH is really variable, as can be seen in figures 1 and 2 in this study.

To quote from the paper:

So suppression does not even begin until 4 hours after injection, and can last for many hours after that, as the abovementioned figures show. The reason there is a lag of a few hours is because it takes several hours for IGF-1 (which suppresses GH) to rise after a GH injection. See fig 4.

The lower figures of 4 to 6 hours of suppression after an injection are from rat studies:

In previous studies (31, 32), single intramuscularly or sc administration of hGH (with monitoring of the resulting plasma profiles) showed a delayed and prolonged suppressive effect on rat GH secretion. The time course of endogenous GH suppression in rats was similar to but faster than that in humans reported here. The fast time course in rats was probably due to the rapid absorption of hGH in this species (14, 33).

Thank you for sharing MM; but, what do you think of the above-posted info by Nandi?


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Miracle Man
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I am not big in the usage of slin with Hgh. I am already 255 lbs at 6'1". I do not feel the need to get bigger. Best to ask someone who knows more about slin usage and carb intake when and where. I do not like to give advice if I never went down that path.

The study in hand is a small study, 30 something patients only. Not enough to really draw any real conclusions. This was a phase I clinical trial, really not a good significant level to draw any medical conclusions. If it were phase III, one, there would be hundreds of patients and phase III holds more respect in the medical community than phase I. Rat's and human biology are different. I have seen HIV medicines over the years practically eliminate HIV in lab rats and in vitro. But in Vivo, the drug was little to be desired. Maintaining your IGF-1 levels during the course of the day is the key. Whether you inject at 9,10,11,12,1 AM, your Hgh course of therapy will end at 8 AM the latest. What happens after that? IGF-1 levels will return to baseline. 5 days on 2 days off is a joke. If you have to do that, then you really can't afford to do Hgh.


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JohnnyB
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Re: HGH and food/carbs/insulin levels

Posted by: plato
I am on board with the AM dosing vs night time.

What effects does eating especially carbs & insulin raising from this have on GH?

Should you wait to take it at least 1hr after carbs, and limit carbs for how long after you administer?? Or doesn't it matter?

How would a pm slin injection effect your night time hgh?

JohnnyB


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JohnnyB
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Plato Welcome CEM Bro

JohnnyB


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RaynMela
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bump for update


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Nandi
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quote:


Whether you inject at 9,10,11,12,1 AM, your Hgh course of therapy will end at 8 AM the latest. What happens after that? IGF-1 levels will return to baseline.


That's not the way it works. See attached graph in my post in this thread:

IGF-1 levels build up during the course of GH treatment because of the significant time lag to peak IGF-1 production after a GH injection. It is only after you quit your GH cycle that IGF-1 returns to baseline. This is evident from the graph referenced above.

In any case, too much emphasis is being put on hepatically derived IGF-1. The currrent reasoning is that IGF-1 produced locally within muscle, which then acts back on that muscle in an autocrine/paracrine manner is what is important for muscle hypertrophy. That and the IGF-1 isoform commonly called "mechanogrowth factor" which is produced in muscle as a response to stretch (eccentric exercise).

Hepatically derived IGF-1 is thought to play only a minor role in muscle growth, being more improtant for carbohydrate metabolism and feedback control of GH secretion than for stimulating hypertrophy.


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SWALE
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"If you guys could come up with a weak melatonin agonist that antagonized endo melatonin release at night..." FONZ.

WHAT??? Melatonin is one of the most important hormones we produce. Besides being responsible for our sense of restfulness, it looks to be the most anti-oxidative of ALL the substances we produce.

So anti-oxidative: it is being used to protect the body from genetic damage following radiation exposure. I attended a lecture given by the PhD who is generally considered to be the world's foremost authority on melatonin, and walked away MIGHTY impressed by this absolutely incredible hormone.

Your comment seems particularly strange given your fondness for ALA.

So important for our restfulness: I now recommend my patients sleep in TOTAL darkness (not even a nightlight) as even a brief exposure to ANY light (i.e. while making that obligatory trip to the bathroom) can disrupt its production. I have had several patients with complaints of daytime fatigue try this, and happily reported back that they now feel much better during each day.

Good Lord, son, learn what you are talking about before publishing comments like that. Peoples' health could be damaged if they take any of that nonsense to heart. It might also be a good idea to actually learn what an "agonist" is.

ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.


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SWALE
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Miracle man--I do not know you, as I have not seen any of your postings, but I sure do appreciate your common sense approach.

Like you, I agree that 5on/2off is nonsense. I just have my patients divide the total dose they can afford (the limiting factor, as my patients usually aren't rich like those who go to CENEGENICS) each week by seven, and take that much every day.

I am well aquainted with CENEGENICS' protocols, as they are colleagues of mine, and I regularly discuss them with them.

The consensus throughout the HRT community AT THIS TIME is that AM dosing is the best.

As far as ignoring the nightime suppression, why pay a small fortune for something your body will give you for free? For BB'ers on heavy GH programs, though, this probably is of no concern, as they are completely suppressed anyway.

Currently, I have my GH therapy patients take their GH first thing in the morning: get out of bed, urinate, subQ injection, breakfast.

ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.


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Fonz
 Fonz
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Posted by: SWALE
"If you guys could come up with a weak melatonin agonist that antagonized endo melatonin release at night..." FONZ.

WHAT??? Melatonin is one of the most important hormones we produce. Besides being responsible for our sense of restfulness, it looks to be the most anti-oxidative of ALL the substances we produce.

So anti-oxidative: it is being used to protect the body from genetic damage following radiation exposure. I attended a lecture given by the PhD who is generally considered to be the world's foremost authority on melatonin, and walked away MIGHTY impressed by this absolutely incredible hormone.

Your comment seems particularly strange given your fondness for ALA.

So important for our restfulness: I now recommend my patients sleep in TOTAL darkness (not even a nightlight) as even a brief exposure to ANY light (i.e. while making that obligatory trip to the bathroom) can disrupt its production. I have had several patients with complaints of daytime fatigue try this, and happily reported back that they now feel much better during each day.

Good Lord, son, learn what you are talking about before publishing comments like that. Peoples' health could be damaged if they take any of that nonsense to heart. It might also be a good idea to actually learn what an "agonist" is.

I suggest you stick to HRT and the like, as you obviously don't have the necessary intellectual abilities to theorize about pretty much anything w/o sticking your puny head out an inch. (Typical of an MD)

I squashed your little anti-R-ALA escapade, as well as your many futile attempts at calling me stupid.( I got a laugh out of those attempts btw)

Fact remains, you're just another person pimping his product on the internet.

Nothing new to me. Except for the fact that you charge exorbitant prices for your "product", and alter information to suit your needs and drive more clients towards your little internet operation.

I'm nothing like you....and nor do i ever wish to be. You're just another malcontent MD trying to hide the fact he's got ZERO imagination, and can't come up with any of his own ideas, while a 25 y/o can. Readily at that.

Your ability to conceptualize and analyze is downright pathetic.

So run along now..... you're not even worth the energy necessary to type out replies to your posts.

Fonz

If I want to add flavor to my cooking. . . . . . . I just burn it

There is NO such thing as over training just under EATING. ~ Trey Brewer


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