Supressing - deca vs. test  

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Seabiscuit Hogg
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05/03/2019 6:12 am  
Posted by: Big Cat
In women such would be the preferred treatment because anti-estrogens are simply not an option. In men, its an entirely different scenario, and especially with the increased levels being induced. In this case we have to opt for the simplest, most convenient and fastest treatment. And since a lot of people have anti-estrogens handy, or already use them on cycle, it makes little sense to search for alternative treatments that have been proven less effective, and when used in conjunction with an anti-estrogen, completely unnecessary.

That's true as far as galactorhea is concerned but aren't there other concerns with high prolactin levels? If I remember correctly it was the reason GHB is inaffective as a GH releaser.

Seabiscuit Hogg is a fictious internet character. It is not recommended that you receive medical advice from fictious internet characters.

SBH :)


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Restless
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05/03/2019 6:48 am  
Posted by: FContact
LiftsIron was not saying galactorrhea had anything to do with gyno. I know he has a good understanding on prolactin and the role it plays with galactorrhea as I have had many discussions with him and others.

But does he know prolactin and progesterone are different hormones?


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Seabiscuit Hogg
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05/03/2019 7:47 am  

Is there any real scientific proof of progesterone causing gyno? Every time I've heard an anecdotal report, there was always another drug involved, usually something that aromatizes readily.

Seabiscuit Hogg is a fictious internet character. It is not recommended that you receive medical advice from fictious internet characters.

SBH :)


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Restless
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05/03/2019 8:34 am  
Posted by: Seabiscuit Hogg
Is there any real scientific proof of progesterone causing gyno? Every time I've heard an anecdotal report, there was always another drug involved, usually something that aromatizes readily.

Without estrogen, none that I've seen.


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bigj
 bigj
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05/03/2019 9:05 am  

still the combination could be problematic. Why take chances?
Estrogen and progesterone receptors in gynecomastia.

Pensler JM, Silverman BL, Sanghavi J, Goolsby C, Speck G, Brizio-Molteni L, Molteni A.

Division of Plastic Surgery, Children's Memorial Hospital, Chicago, Ill., USA. jpensler@plasticsurg.org

The etiology of gynecomastia is unknown. There seems to be no increased incidence of malignancies in patients with idiopathic gynecomastia; however, patients with Klinefelter syndrome exhibit an increased incidence of malignancy. The authors reviewed the results of 34 patients with gynecomastia diagnosed in adolescence who, following initial evaluation, had a mastectomy. The estrogen and progesterone receptors were analyzed in these patients. Three of the patients were diagnosed with Klinefelter syndrome. These three patients exhibited elevated amounts of estrogen and progesterone receptors. None of the patients who were not diagnosed with this syndrome demonstrated significant elevation of their estrogen or progesterone receptors. The presence of elevated estrogen and progesterone receptors in patients with Klinefelter syndrome provides a potential mechanism by which these patients may develop breast neoplasms. The absence of elevated estrogen and progesterone receptors in patients with idiopathic gynecomastia may serve to clarify why these patients' disease rarely degenerates into malignancy.

PMID: 11039372 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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Restless
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05/03/2019 9:59 am  
Posted by: bigj
still the combination could be problematic. Why take chances?
Estrogen and progesterone receptors in gynecomastia.

Pensler JM, Silverman BL, Sanghavi J, Goolsby C, Speck G, Brizio-Molteni L, Molteni A.

Division of Plastic Surgery, Children's Memorial Hospital, Chicago, Ill., USA. jpensler@plasticsurg.org

The etiology of gynecomastia is unknown. There seems to be no increased incidence of malignancies in patients with idiopathic gynecomastia; however, patients with Klinefelter syndrome exhibit an increased incidence of malignancy. The authors reviewed the results of 34 patients with gynecomastia diagnosed in adolescence who, following initial evaluation, had a mastectomy. The estrogen and progesterone receptors were analyzed in these patients. Three of the patients were diagnosed with Klinefelter syndrome. These three patients exhibited elevated amounts of estrogen and progesterone receptors. None of the patients who were not diagnosed with this syndrome demonstrated significant elevation of their estrogen or progesterone receptors. The presence of elevated estrogen and progesterone receptors in patients with Klinefelter syndrome provides a potential mechanism by which these patients may develop breast neoplasms. The absence of elevated estrogen and progesterone receptors in patients with idiopathic gynecomastia may serve to clarify why these patients' disease rarely degenerates into malignancy.

PMID: 11039372 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Ence the use of an AI.

How do you suggest one blocks the progestin receptor?


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bigj
 bigj
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05/03/2019 10:56 am  

I'll try to find some time to study on that one later...
I was hoping you guys would find an answer!
Can't think of many options....mifeprestone...
selective progesterone receptor modulators (SPRMs) ???

Valproate is an anti-androgen and anti-progestin.

Death AK, McGrath KC, Handelsman DJ.

Heart Research Institute, 145 Missenden Road, Camperdown, NSW 2050, Australia; Discipline of Medicine, University of Sydney, NSW, Australia.

Anti-convulsant treatment is associated with a high prevalence of reproductive dysfunction compared with age-matched non-epileptics. We examined the widely used anti-convulsants valproate (VPA) and carbamazepine (CBZ) for steroidal bioactivity using a yeast-based steroid receptor-beta-galactosidase reporter assay for the androgen receptor (AR), progesterone receptor (PR) or estrogen receptor (ER). Bioassays were performed (a) to detect agonist activity by exposing yeast to 100muM CBZ or VPA or (b) to detect antagonist activity by exposing yeast stimulated with Testosterone(5x10(-9)M, AR), progesterone (1.6x10(-9)M, PR) or estradiol (2.6x10(-11)M, ER) together with either VPA or CBZ for 4 (PR) or 16 (AR, ER) hours. VPA showed dose-dependent (1-800muM) inhibition of progesterone-induced PR- and testosterone-induced AR activity but had no ER antagonist bioactivity and no significant PR, AR or ER agonist bioactivity. VPA also showed a dose-dependent (1-200muM) blockade of DHT's suppression of AR-mediated NF-kappaB activation in human mammalian cells. By contrast, CBZ had no significant PR, AR or ER agonist or AR and ER antagonist bioactivity but at the highest concentration tested (800muM) it did antagonize PR activity. We conclude that VPA is a non-steroidal antagonist for human AR and PR but not ER. VPA's androgen and progesterone antagonism at concentrations within therapeutic blood levels (350-700muM) seems likely to contribute to the frequency of reproductive endocrine disturbances among patients treated with VPA.

PMID: 16165177 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher

Take from that what you like....I never really like anti-androgens..

Heck, you guys are all very intelligent...that's the only reason I ever even check this board out! I'm in school now learning this stuff....or similar....and many other things....TRYING to work up to most of "y'alls" league!

bigj


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musclescientist
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05/03/2019 11:53 am  
Posted by: Black Baccara
Not sure with Anadrol (oxymetholone).

I assume that the 4-ene-double bound is needed to enhance progestogenic activity. Metabolites like DHN have very low to no progestogenic activity.

The AR affinity is another point of interest. Because 19-Nor can bind very strongly to the AR.

So : progestogenic activity + great AR affinity + long ester chain ...

Research about male contraception use a 19-Nor derived called MENT (7 alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone).

According to Vida, methylating the 7 position of Nortest was the most plausible and efficatious solution for these group of steroids.


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musclescientist
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05/03/2019 12:29 pm  
Posted by: liftsiron
You claim to have done alot bro, but actually what you have accomplished has made your self one of the most disliked and disrespected mods that frequents any board. The outlandish claim that you posted above is a prime example why so many vets find your childish remarks unbecomming of the self proclaimed genuis that you list yourself as being.
You may have a good mind and I believe that you do, but unless you change your belittling attitude and arrogant nature. Your going to continue to offend far more than you will ever help, and eventually bad mouth yourself off the boards. I feel absolutely no anger toward you, in fact I'm telling you what I percieve, without the sugar coating that your used to getting, in hopes that something may sink in. Welcome to reality!

Word, same reason why he left BB.com and MM already. With knowledge comes great responsibilty especially those of you who want to spread the gospel Nandi started


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Big Cat
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05/03/2019 1:26 pm  
Posted by: Seabiscuit Hogg
Is there any real scientific proof of progesterone causing gyno? Every time I've heard an anecdotal report, there was always another drug involved, usually something that aromatizes readily.

No, on all counts the cause was found to be something else. I recently ilucidated on the mechanism behind nandrolone's estrogenic action, and how progesterone binding plays no role in this. Likewise, much more potent progestins like trenbolone and metribolone simply do not cause gyno.

Good things come to those who weight.

The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.


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Big Cat
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05/03/2019 2:07 pm  
Posted by: Restless
Ence the use of an AI.

How do you suggest one blocks the progestin receptor?

One doesn't, its completely unnecessary, unless you happen to be suffering some pathology that is influenced by increased progestagenic action. A healthy male has nothing to fear from the progestagenic effects of known and commonly use androgens.

Good things come to those who weight.

The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.


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Big Cat
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05/03/2019 3:01 pm  
Posted by: musclescientist
Word, same reason why he left BB.com and MM already. With knowledge comes great responsibilty especially those of you who want to spread the gospel Nandi started

If you disrespect me that is one thing, I quit that childishness a long time ago. But please do not disrespect nandi or his memory in his own house.

For the record, I'm still an active moderator at BB.com, and I never frequented MM for reasons that shouldn't need to be explained anymore.

Good things come to those who weight.

The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.


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bigj
 bigj
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05/03/2019 3:43 pm  

cytadren would combat progestins as well, I believe.
Some people don't like the sides from progesterone.......there ARE those people....enough said there...


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Big Cat
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05/03/2019 4:37 pm  

Re: for the sake of knowledge

Posted by: bigj
cytadren would combat progestins as well, I believe.
Some people don't like the sides from progesterone.......there ARE those people....enough said there...

I'm willing to believe that, however I'm wondering what those side-effects may be ? They are obviously not the perceived estrogenic effects, as is evidenced by all progestagenic androgens.

The only information on aminoglutethimide and inhibitory effects on progesterone is the inhibition of placental progesterone synthesis. Since in the case of progestagenic androgens we would be administering the progestin, and the fact that most men do not have and never will have a placenta would suggest that the role of this compound would therefore be limited if indeed there was a need for a progesterone inhibitor.

A cheap and easy to get progesterone blocker is http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=yhst-20189112917352&query=Spironolactone&.autodone=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cemproducts.com%2Fnsearch.htm l" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Spironolactone, this is however also an androgen receptor blocker.

Good things come to those who weight.

The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.


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Ivan D.
(@ivan-d)
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05/03/2019 5:28 pm  

Seems the discussion about prog-gyno doesn`t find an end.
I do not really believe, steroids like Trenbolon could cause a "real" gyno, the prolactin shouldn`t play any role here because we know androgens usually to lower prolactin, but there was a study unfortunately with no abstract available, wich sounds interesting. (1)

Nandrolone induced prolactinsecretion. One could say this happend through the estrogenic effect, the activation of ERE through Nandrolone, but is this really the case?

High prolactinlevels may not cause gynecomastia, but it can for example cause some cases of mastodynia in women, it means lactation and breastpain, but there are several kinds of, or different reasons for mastodynia.

(1)
Roger FH.
[Secretion of prolactin induced by phenyl-propionate of 19-nor-androstenolone in the castrated male rat]
Ann Endocrinol (Paris). 1970 Jul-Aug;31(4):724-7. French. No abstract available.


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