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ready2explode
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04/02/2019 7:51 pm  
Posted by: Restless
Science has told us that protein synthesis is back to basal levels within 24-48 hours, thus, you're not growing after that. With your routines you are growing for 2 days and then you're doing nothing for five more.

This is true, but you're forgetting that your training other body parts too. For example, if you were to only train chest it is quite possible to train it EOD. The problem is that we're training our whole body for muscular hypertrophy. We cannot take in enough cals in order to work each body part EOD, and still grow. It is not possible to eat that much.

"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
~W.B. Prescott

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
~Albert Einstein


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Restless
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04/02/2019 8:45 pm  
Posted by: debo604
Ha, pink underwear, funny. By individual preference I mean their overall goals, and the amount of time that person has in the gym. Let me explain…

I have about an hour or so to burn in the gym. My goal is to build muscle. When I work out I am trying to go heavy 8 to 10 reps, 3-4 sets usually. I do maybe 4 or 5 exercises per muscle group. This is because I want to hit the area of focus in different ways, to break the muscle down completely. Also, my rest period between each is usually 45 secs to a minute. Simply stated, I do not feel that I would be breaking down the muscle, as it should be done, trying to get everything in twice a week (not only that but I don not have near enough energy).


See, but this is exactly the problem. You are judging the effectiveness of your workouts by something as subjective as perceived intensity when the that doesn't mean anything to the muscle.

And I have no ideia with what you mean with "to hit the area of focus in different ways", maybe it's hitting different parts of the muscle?If it is then that's not happening, it's an erroneous notion. It's complete fiction.

Posted by: debo604
Also, I'd like to know where this scientific evidence you speak of is coming from. So far I haven’t seen anything to support this. Are you talking about research with experimental and control groups, or just what you see when working out, or what? In all fairness, this has not caught on here at my gym. I don’t see anyone training twice a week except newbies, or those guys you see walking around with huge arms and neglected calves and such.

Yes, done with experienced trainees. Go to the HST forum and read the FAQ. There's link to most research there, including the abstracts that contradict all the myths you and everyone else believe in.

Posted by: debo604

In all fairness, this has not caught on here at my gym. I don’t see anyone training twice a week except newbies, or those guys you see walking around with huge arms and neglected calves and such.


ahahahah

Really? I guess that does put me in my place then.

I train everything three times a week by the way and I and a lot of people at the HST forum have made the best gains ever with this protocol.

Of course, one will need some open mindness in order to let go of all the missconcenptions that plague bodybuilders. Your perceived intensity, different areas of the muscle, the high volume to tear the muscle, failure and all those things that are not related to mucle growth will get on your way.


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debo604
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04/02/2019 9:42 pm  

Fair enough, I appreciate the response. In hitting different parts of the muscle, I meant muscle group...for bi's I can understand doing only a few excercises a night, but for something more complex like the chest, I do not want to limit myself with just flat bench presses, but also incline/decline flyes, d(KP)s, etc. This is what I meant.

Your routine sounds very interesting, I consider myself to have an open mind and am all ears when it comes to increasing gains. So far, what I have been doing the past 5 years seems to be working very well...But please do explain your weekly routine.


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puyore
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04/02/2019 10:15 pm  

does anyone have some studies on trained athletes showing which is better? id like to see these.


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GettinSwole
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04/02/2019 10:58 pm  
Posted by: ready2explode
This is true, but you're forgetting that your training other body parts too. For example, if you were to only train chest it is quite possible to train it EOD. The problem is that we're training our whole body for muscular hypertrophy. We cannot take in enough cals in order to work each body part EOD, and still grow. It is not possible to eat that much.

Thank you. Someone sees the big picture here. The bottom line is everyone here is right in their own way. I will however assert that OVERTRAINING IS THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF DIMINISHING STRENGTH AND GAINS. If you train intensely and eat right and aren't gaining, you probably need to back off the volume. Not increase it. It sounds like Restless, you don't even believe in overtraining? If rest and recovery are enough correct?

I think the premise of what Restless is saying is correct. The more times you complete the tear down/rebuild cycle in a given period of time the better. It can be done but only if the overall volume is low enough. Dante has a 2x/week program as part of his training but it involves exactly 2 exercises, per muscle group, per week. The problem becomes you can't recover that quickly. Even most pros, who are juiced to the gills, train each bodypart once a week.

Let's say you're training everything twice a week, chances are you're lifting 6x/week which is incredibly taxing on the CNS.

As aforementioned, everybody is different. What works for one person will not always work for another regardless of what you think science dictates. If that was the case everybody would train, eat, sleep, juice the same. And everybody would achieve the same results. There's a little thing called genetics that dictates what's best for YOU. Trying to define a "best" under a blanket statement is as asanine as it is impossible.


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Seabiscuit Hogg
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04/02/2019 11:40 pm  

amen. Thank you GettinSwole!

Seabiscuit Hogg is a fictious internet character. It is not recommended that you receive medical advice from fictious internet characters.

SBH :)


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the iron addict
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05/02/2019 12:35 am  

Statements like "science has shown us that training 2x per week is the correct way to train" are useless BS because for every one you can produce, I or any other board member here who cares to do a little research can find one that says once a week is optimal.

What matters is what works. And while many people do extremely well on 2x per week schedules, MOST do not. Who is right? The person that is training along the lines of THIER recovery abilty is right irregardless of what others are doing. Getting Swole is quite correct that the reason that most people make slow or no gains is because most people overtrain to a degree, and the more they overtrain, the less they grow. Some handle large workloads very well, MOST do not. I train 50-75 people at any one time, and the bulk of these people just will not respond well to high frequency, high volume workloads regardless of diet and gear use. Find the level of volume and frquency that REALLY works best for you, and you will see the magic. Constantly wallow past the boundries of your bodies ability to recouperate and you will be frustarated.........constantly.

Iron Addict


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Restless
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05/02/2019 1:15 am  
Posted by: GettinSwole
Thank you. Someone sees the big picture here. The bottom line is everyone here is right in their own way. I will however assert that OVERTRAINING IS THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF DIMINISHING STRENGTH AND GAINS. If you train intensely and eat right and aren't gaining, you probably need to back off the volume. Not increase it. It sounds like Restless, you don't even believe in overtraining? If rest and recovery are enough correct?


Not at all. I have been plagued by overtraining three years ago and I could never manage to get over it to this day. I have researched it enough to know it's a systemic condition that is not dependant on letting a mucle "recuperate", which I still have no ideia what you mean with that.

Posted by: GettinSwole
I think the premise of what Restless is saying is correct. The more times you complete the tear down/rebuild cycle in a given period of time the better. It can be done but only if the overall volume is low enough. Dante has a 2x/week program as part of his training but it involves exactly 2 exercises, per muscle group, per week. The problem becomes you can't recover that quickly. Even most pros, who are juiced to the gills, train each bodypart once a week. [/B]


Pro's train with 20 sets plus per bodypart, do you also recommend that?

Not that I think this is of any relevance but many train more frequently than once week.

quote:


Originally posted by GettinSwole Let's say you're training everything twice a week, chances are you're lifting 6x/week which is incredibly taxing on the CNS. [/B]


See, this is the kind of assumptions that I don't understand. Why not a split routine with the 2 differemt days? Why not full body three times a week? Who said anything about 6 X week?

quote:


Originally posted by GettinSwole 6x/week which is incredibly taxing on the CNS. [/B]


Why? Please explain to me why 4 sets twice a week are more taxing than 8-9 sets once per week.


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Restless
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05/02/2019 1:48 am  
Posted by: the iron addict

Some handle large workloads very well, MOST do not. I train 50-75 people at any one time, and the bulk of these people just will not respond well to high frequency, high volume workloads regardless of diet and gear use. Find the level of volume and frquency that REALLY works best for you, and you will see the magic. Constantly wallow past the boundries of your bodies ability to recouperate and you will be frustarated.........constantly.

Iron Addict

Either I suck at explaining things or you people can't read.

When did I ever mentioned increasing volume. Please tell me.

Do you realise that frquency and volume are not necessarily directly correlated?


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puyore
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05/02/2019 2:43 am  

restless, they are going by what they see in real life. and based on that, i would have to agree because plenty of big people advocate 1x per week, and not only that, but most of US use that method and like it. if you could, id like to see the science you keep referring to. and no, im not saying that in an antagonistic way.


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Calvin
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05/02/2019 8:47 am  

Didnt know this was this big issue for discussion 🙂

Lots of nice replyes here, belive i learned something. But i dindnt get any direct comments on my program.

Week 1

Day 1 Chest
Day 2 Back \ Biceps
Day 3 Rest
Day 4 Shoulders \ Triceps
Day 5 Legs
Day 6\7 Rest

Week 2

Day 1 Chest
Day 2 Back \ Biceps
Day 3 Rest
Day 4 Chest \ Triceps
Day 5 Legs \ Shoulders
Day 6\7 Rest

and start over again
*********************************
But after reading all the posting here I wonder about going foor a straight program like this. But then i dont get to train my chest more than the rest of my body:

Day 1 Chest
Day 2 Back \ Biceps
Day 3 Rest
Day 4 Shoulders \ Triceps
Day 5 Legs
Day 6\7 Rest

What do u think should I go for the 1 weeker ore the 2 weeker.

********************************************
If i do chest only once a week should I do like 5 different exercises and 4 sets each or is that to much


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ready2explode
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05/02/2019 9:39 am  
Posted by: Restless
Why? Please explain to me why 4 sets twice a week are more taxing than 8-9 sets once per week.

I don't think anyone is picking this part up, I know I didn't from your first posts. You're advocating decreasing total volume, but increasing frequency? This is an entirely different debate. I believe most of the posts are arguing that the traditional 12 sets routines can't be done twice a week with every body part.

I would also like to see some of the science behind what you're advocating. I'm curious, not trying to fight. Post up a link to that HST Forum. Whatever is going to make me grow the fastest, I'm going to use.

"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
~W.B. Prescott

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
~Albert Einstein


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ready2explode
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05/02/2019 10:31 am  

Re: My Program

Posted by: Calvin
Week 1

Day 1 Chest
Day 2 Back \ Biceps
Day 3 Rest
Day 4 Shoulders \ Triceps
Day 5 Legs
Day 6\7 Rest

Week 2

Day 1 Chest
Day 2 Back \ Biceps
Day 3 Rest
Day 4 Chest \ Triceps
Day 5 Legs \ Shoulders
Day 6\7 Rest


I like this program. I've been training chest twice a week for the last few months with great results. My chest refused to budge before, but now it's slowly catching up to the rest of my body.

It is quite possible to use a traditional training routine, and pick one body part to do twice a week. Jguns also advocates it if you'd like another opinion.

Only suggestion I'd make is moving those shoulders around in week 2. I could never manage to do legs and shoulders on the same day. I'd move tris to day 1, and shoulders to day 4 of week 2. Just personal preference, I guess.

My current routine looks like this:

Day 1: Chest, Shoulders
Day 2: Legs, Calves, Abs
Day 3: Off
Day 4: Chest, Shoulders
Day 5: Back, Bis
Day 6: Calves, Abs
Day 7: Off

My chest, shoulders, and calves are my weak point. Arms and abs are by far my strongest points. Triceps don't get any individual attention in my program. Though due to all the pressing sets on my chest and shoulder day, they do get a good deal of work twice a week. So as you can see I'm not advocating something I have not found success with....

"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
~W.B. Prescott

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
~Albert Einstein


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GettinSwole
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05/02/2019 11:06 am  

If total volume is decreased but frequency increased that's a different story. So what you're saying is you would recommend a total body workout 3x/week for optimal growth?


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GettinSwole
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05/02/2019 12:01 pm  

Rest & Overtraining
By: Jeff Behar

In order to improve performance (gain size, strength and/or definition) you've got to work hard. However, hard training (be it heavy training, training with less rest between sets, more sets per work, or less days off) will break down your muscles and in the very short term, make you weaker.

To grow and to get stronger, the most important part of this equation is not necessarily how hard you train. To make the huge gains we all desire lifting success can not be thought of in a vacuum. An experienced athlete, who does include weightlifters and bodybuilders, understands the importance of proper nutrition and rest.

However, there are still many bodybuilders who do not realize (or at least underestimate) the important role rest plays in obtaining maximum performance and results from the hours spent in the gym.

The Value Of Rest

It is rest that makes you stronger, because it is the rest that allows the muscles that you have broken down to heal and recover. It is the rest that allows you to recover so you can be strong, and thereby handle the increased weight, and increased number of sets and reps needed to gain further.

Why does rest play such an important role in muscle recovery? It is during sleep where Growth Hormone (GH) levels are at their highest. Physiologic improvement in bodybuilding can only occur during the rest period following hard training. This is also why consuming the proper foods and supplements immediately following such training is key.

"...if proper recovery time (rest) is not given then the body can not regenerate."

Hard intense training (whether it is aerobic training which will challenge the cardiovascular system or weight training which will challenge the cardiovascular system to an extent and the muscular systems) conditions the body. Such workouts will improve efficiency of the heart, increase capillaries in the muscles bringing greater blood flow (more oxygen and nutrition), and increase glycogen stores and mitochondrial enzyme systems within the muscle cells (resulting in a much fuller look).

Immediately following a workout, during a recovery period these systems build to greater levels to compensate for the stress that you have applied. The result is that you are now at a higher level of performance. However, if proper recovery time (rest) is not given then the body can not regenerate.

The body will store less glycogen which is why you will look flat when you overtrain. If this imbalance between intense excess training and inadequate recovery (rest) time persists then performance will decline.

Without proper recovery time, not only will you reach a performance plateau, but you also will run the risk of injury, and may even experience reduced performance (less strength, less endurance, etc.).

Needed Rest Or Are You Just Being Lazy?

It is important to be able to discern the difference between needed rest and just laziness. There are a lot of factors that can contribute to how you are feeling and how your body will respond.

These Factors Include:

Stress
Sleep
Nutrition
Physical condition
Emotional state
Recuperation time; not necessarily in order of importance.
Regardless of whether I have a show or not I will always listen to my body when it comes to training and recuperation.

"The amount a rest and recovery time an individual needs will vary from person to person."

Having been training for over 25 years I follow instinctive training to gauge whether or not I need rest. How much I train, how often, how fast, how long and how heavy will all depend on my energy levels and how I feel.

Sometimes, I will opt to take a day off in the middle of my training split; sometimes I may slide a body part to the next day if my energy is off. Sometimes I won't even take a day off and I might cycle through my routine 2x before taking the day off. It will all depend as to how I feel.

Because the mind can sometimes be tricky, in many cases I will always drive to the gym and attempt my workout to see if my lethargy is real. I have found that approximately 50% of the time once I get to the gym and start my workout I not alone have an amazing workout but I actually feel better (endomorphin release). Making myself go to the gym prevents my mind from psyching me out of a workout because I know I am forcing myself there.

Defining Overtraining

So what exactly is overtraining for a bodybuilder? Overtraining can best be defined as the state where your body has been repeatedly stressed by training (weight training and/or cardio) to the point where rest is no longer adequate to allow for recovery.

There Are Two Main Types Of Overtraining:

Localized
Systemic overtraining
Both can occur as a result of too much exercise/stress without enough recover time/rest and proper nutrition. Localized overtraining is the most common. As the name implies, localized overtraining effects a specific muscle or muscle group without affecting other muscle groups.

The most common cause of localized overtraining is when the same muscle group is trained on successive days or with too much frequency without adequate amounts of rest. This can also occur when supporting muscle groups are trained on separate days, thereby never given these muscles a chance to recover.

"It is very common for bodybuilders, power lifters and fitness competitors to experience localized overtraining."

Systemic overtraining occurs must less frequently and is potentially the more serious of the two types of overtraining. Systemic overtraining will affect the entire body causing the body to enter a negative nitrogen balance (a catabolic state). As the body enters this state the body also produces an increased amount of cortisol.

Cortisol is a hormone secreted by the adrenal cortex in response to stress. Cortisol impedes muscular repair and function, decreases Testosterone production, inhibits protein synthesis, accelerates proteolysis (protein breakdown) and inhibits muscular growth. Making matters worse it also reduces the body's ability to use fat as an energy source, increasing the amount of stored fat within the body.

Signs Of Overtraining

There are many signs of overtraining. Physical symptoms include elevated morning pulse (10 beats more than normal), consistently elevated blood pressure, lack, persistent muscular soreness, increased frequency of common illnesses, like colds, increased incidence of injuries, and decreased appetite and weight loss. The effects from overtraining may not only by physiological.

Emotional & Behavioral Symptoms Can Also Occur Such As:

Irritability
Mood swings
Insomnia
Depression
Loss of desire to train (or do other things formerly enjoyed).
Emotional and behavioral symptoms typically will only occur as a result of chronic (long term) overtraining (weeks to months). This condition is best known as "burnout"."

This condition is different from short term overtraining in that post exercise fatigue and emotional swings persist even after recovery periods that are taken.

The Overtraining Threshold

The exact threshold for overtraining will vary among individuals, as everyone responds differently to exercise and stress. Some weightlifters can tolerate large volumes of sets and heavy weights while others can tolerate much less.

"Regarding training volume the number of sets should be reasonable as not overtax your neuromuscular system and deplete your energy reserves."

Several factors such as nutrition sleep quality, hormonal and enzymatic concentrations, muscle fiber composition, and previous training experience can impact recuperative capacity and, therefore effect when overtraining will occur.

Although everyone has varying recuperative abilities, a period of 48 to 72 hours is usually required for adequate recovery between strength training sessions.

For most people 8 hours of GOOD sleep is also a safe bet. Even the most experienced bodybuilders typically do not train large muscle groups more than ten to twelve total sets while subjecting smaller muscle groups to only eight to ten sets.

Studies

There have been several clinical studies done regarding overtraining. One interesting finding is that in many individuals overtraining increased the body's cortisol levels and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA). DHEA and cortisol are the body's long-acting stress hormones and are antagonistic to each other to some degree.

DHEA has an anabolic or building influence, while cortisol has a catabolic or tearing down effect on the body. Normally these hormones are in balance.

They become imbalanced during chronic overtraining. After proper rest and recovery, the body will reduce its output of cortisol and DHEA to resting levels. This is what happens with short episodes of stress. However, if proper recovery is not obtained such as in chronic overtraining conditions, the body will continue to make increasingly greater amounts of cortisol, while reducing the amount of DHEA produced.

Elevated Levels Of Cortisol Can:

Cause you to crave carbohydrates excessively especially in the evening

Make you feel fatigued and exhausted

Increase cholesterol and triglyceride production

Decrease serotonin levels in your brain which can trigger depression.

Deplete vital vitamins and minerals the body needs for proper function such as the B (aka, stress vitamins), Calcium and magnesium
The consequences of elevated cortisol and reduced DHEA can be devastating. Although the effects from high cortisol and low DHEA levels will vary with each individual and will also be dependent upon genetics, lifestyle and environmental factors.

The Negative Effects May Include:

Reduced growth hormone (GH) release, which related to reduced muscle mass and strength, increased fat tissue, a weakened immune system and other health declines.

Reduce protein synthesis.

Increased protein breakdown, which can lead to muscle loss, bone loss, arthritis, and overall muscle weakness.

Immune system compromise with increased risk to infections, certain and disease.

Thyroid function impairment resulting in decreased metabolism, and increased fat storage.

Glucose utilization and insulin function impairment resulting in higher blood sugar levels.

Salt and water are retention, which can raise blood pressure (this can be deadly if anabolic aids which can also raise blood pressure through fluid retention are also used).

Increased blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels increasing the risk for heart disease.

Disrupted sleep patterns.

Reduced R.E.M. (rapid eye movement)
Overtraining has also shown to cause an increase in the amount of free radicals within the body. This can serve to exacerbate the catabolic effects of overtraining, making symptoms worse.

Treatment For Overtraining

The treatment for the overtraining sounds very simple - rest and proper nutrition. However, there are many different opinion regarding what is proper rest and what is proper nutrition. The can be further complicated for the pre-contest competitive bodybuilder who is increasing training while trying to control caloric intake.

Rest & Relaxation

There are many ways a bodybuilder can rest and reduce elevated cortisol levels. The most obvious method is to increase sleep (and I mean good quality R.E.M. sleep). This will increase GH levels and reduce cortisol levels.

There are also other positive methods to reduce stress and aid in recovery. Such methods may include massage (which also increases blood flow to the muscle to aid in recovery), meditation, and yoga.

"Reducing caffeine and other stimulants is also important since they negatively affect sleep patterns."

Caffeine also stimulates the pituitary gland which also can raise cortisol and dopamine levels, which are the same neurotransmitter that makes heroin, amphetamines and cocaine which is one reason why some find caffeine addicting (some have found success using tyrosine supplementation to raise dopamine levels in the absence of caffeine).

Rest - How Much Is Enough?

To make gains a bodybuilder must straddle the line between challenging (stress) the body and rest. Unfortunately the amount of rest each person needs is also once again dependent upon genetics, lifestyle and environmental factors.

Studies show that as we age we need less rest, but those studies are not geared towards competitive bodybuilders. The best recommendation I could give to a bodybuilder regarding what is the proper amount of rest is to advise him to listen to his/her body.

The real key to success is to be able to detect the signs of overtraining early and to take the needed rest. This needs to happen even if you believe you do not have the time, and "your body is not ready for your contest". It is important to remember that in many cases more training will not be best, and will only result in a worse appearance. What is important is to train hard while you are in the gym, get the best nutrition and rest when you are out of the gym, and the rest (no pun intended) will follow.

Nutrition & Supplementation

Regarding nutrition, nothing beats a good balanced diet. Consuming quality carbohydrates, especially post-workout, helps to replenish glycogen stores and provide sufficient energy for intense training. It is also imperative to maintain an adequate amount of good quality protein.

There is an abundance of evidence that weightlifters need up to 2x the amount of protein than the average person. As a minimum, serious weightlifters should consume approximately one gram of protein per pound of bodyweight to maintain a positive nitrogen balance. This means that a 200 pound bodybuilder should consume 5 protein meals of approximately 40 grams of protein.

Protein Calculator
Your Bodyweight:
Pounds OR Kilograms
Press Calculate To View Results Below

Results - Protein Per Day And Per Meal:
For a bodyweight of pounds, take in grams of protein per day, and split it into five meals of grams of protein each.

It is understood that this can be difficult sometimes do to today's fast paced environment, as well as during pre-contest time. Therefore the use of high quality supplements can be useful in preventing protein breakdown.

Overtraining can deplete minerals such as zinc, magnesium, manganese, calcium, and vitamins B6, Pantothenic Acid (B5) and vitamin C. Additional supplementation of these vitamins and minerals are highly suggested.

Anti-oxidants such as Vitamin C, Vitamin E, co-enzyme Q10, alpha-l(KP)oic acid, and selenium should also be used since they have been proven effective in combating free radicals that form as a result of overtraining.

A DHEA supplement is also desirable because DHEA is antagonistic to cortisol. 7-Keto DHEA is preferred by many bodybuilders because it is considered a more potent form of DHEA that will not be converted to active androgens (testosterone) and estrogens which will cause further water retention and a "soft" look.

glutamine supplementation should also be considered to replace glutamine stores used during the workouts, boost the immune system and to prevent protein breakdown. Arginine and ornithine supplementation is suggested to increase growth hormone levels.

Conclusion

The best defense to overtraining is a proper combination of god rest and proper nutrition. A well-planned training program will include adequate recovery time and proper nutrition, including proper supplementation.

Most importantly listen to your body when you see the early warning signs of overtraining. Be flexible and adjust your workout, your sleep and your diet accordingly.

Understanding the signs of overtraining and responding accordingly will help you reach your goals faster. See ya in the winners circle!


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