Natural Prostate stack and hindering gains  

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neurotic
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21/01/2019 10:02 am  

Hello,

as we discussed earlier there's not conclusive data about the possibility about Saw Palmetto hindering gains by binding to skeletal muscle AR yet.
However, I don't know about other "natural remedies". I have bought an interesting natural prostate stack which contains:

-Saw Palmetto 160 mg
-Pygeum Africanum 25 mg
-Pumpkin seeds 100 mg
-Echinacea 25 mg
-Licopene 2.5 mg

What do you think about these other ingredients? How do they work? do you think that they might hinder gains as well by binding to skeletal muscle AR?

Thank you!


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jboldman
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21/01/2019 10:44 am  

I really think the issue of hindering gains is moot when on cycle. If in fact any of these do, and i have no reason to suspect that they do, it would be a very small effect when compared to 500mg of test.

jb


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neurotic
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21/01/2019 11:26 am  

I think that the issue, more than whether or not they hinder gains is about the ratio prostate-protection gains-hindering. If they have a ratio of 1/1 then you better don't take any of them because it would be just like taking less anabolics and , hence, wasting your money, it would defeat the purpose of your cycle.
For instance, if saw palmetto works by binding the AR and it binds the AR equally at the prostate and the skeletal muscle, then it's useless for our purposes.


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neurotic
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21/01/2019 12:23 pm  

bump


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jboldman
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21/01/2019 1:14 pm  

i have seen no research that would indicate that it binds equally well at the skeletal muscle ar. I along with many others have take SP for years and i can tell you at least anecdotally that it has not impaired my gains.

jb


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neurotic
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21/01/2019 2:11 pm  

What about pygeum africanum, pumpkin seeds and buchu?

Thanks.


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Nandi
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21/01/2019 2:57 pm  

Of the herbs you mention, neurotic, from what I have read Saw Palmetto and Pygeum are the most widely used. Much more research has been done on Saw palmetto compared to any of the others and it seems to be quite effective.

As we have discussed, Saw Palmetto antagonizes the AR so that might be a downside. Perhaps not for someone like jb who injects testosterone. In that case I suspect the law of mass action would cause the test to simply displace a significant portion of the Saw Palmetto from the androgen receptor, allowing for the good gains he reports. But I recall you mentioning that (and correct me if I'm wrong) you prefer prohormones. In that case the relatively low levels of androgens you would get compared to injecting test might not displace enough Saw Palmetto from the AR to allow for gains. This is all speculation and the only way to see is to experiment on yourself both with and without the Saw Palmetto.

Pygeum, although not as thoroughly studied as Saw palmetto, seems to be effective. I have never seen any research to suggest that it antagonizes the AR. It might be a better agent for that reason than Saw Palmetto for a bodybuilder.

The advantage of Saw Palmetto, interestingly, is that it also antagonizes the alpha 1 adrenoreceptor. Alpha 1 receptor activity has been implicated in numerous studies as a causative factor in the development of prostatic hypertrophy, not just bladder outlet obstruction as was thought for many years.

(1) Prostate. 1999 Feb 15;38(3):208-15.

Saw palmetto extracts potently and noncompetitively inhibit human alpha1-adrenoceptors in vitro.

Goepel M, Hecker U, Krege S, Rubben H, Michel MC.


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jboldman
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21/01/2019 3:35 pm  

Nandi is correct in that i usually view things thru the filtering lenses of injectable supraphysiologic test!

In europe a very common combination for treatment of BPH is stinging nettle Root(Urtica dioica ) and pygeum.

The great thing about saw palmetto is(as nandi pointed out above) that it is a multifaceted approach to the problem, both type I and II 5a reductase inhibitor as well as an alpha 1 adrenoreceptor antagonist and also an estrogen antagonist in the prostate.

)Eur Urol. 1992;21(4):309-14. Related Articles, Links
Evidence that Serenoa repens extract displays an antiestrogenic activity in prostatic tissue of benign prostatic hypertrophy patients.)

jb


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neurotic
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21/01/2019 4:25 pm  

Nandi12,

given the fact that Saw Palmetto has a very wide array of protective mechanisms (inhibition of 5AR, antagonization alpha1 adrenoreceptor,...) apart from AR binding, I suppose that, even in the case that it bound to skeletal muscle AR, the benefits you'd get would far outweight the hindering of gains. The degree of prostate protection would be much bigger than the degree of gains hindering in proportion.
Pygeum, if I'm not mistaken works by inhibiting 5AR, doesn't it?


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neurotic
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21/01/2019 4:58 pm  
Posted by: jboldman
)Eur Urol. 1992;21(4):309-14. Related Articles, Links
Evidence that Serenoa repens extract displays an antiestrogenic activity in prostatic tissue of benign prostatic hypertrophy patients.)
jb

Gee, that antiestrogenic activity in prostatic tissue is very interesting! It means that, in a way, it would compensate the excess estrogen created by 5AR blocking. How wise nature is!!!
I once read about Saw Palmetto possibly producing gyno... I think that was probably a totally mistaken statement (unless antiestrogenic activity in prostatic tissue relies on phytoestrogenic tissue specific activity from the herb), but not as mistaken as that fellow who posted "I went to my doc and showed him a bottle of Saw Palmetto and he encouraged me not to use it saying 'This is pure estrogen'".


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Nandi
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21/01/2019 5:39 pm  

Yes, based on the research I've seen, strictly from the standpoint of protecting the prostate and forgetting about any possible AR antagonism in muscle, Saw Palmetto sounds like the superior product because of its multiple actions.

As for any putative estrogenic action of Saw Palmetto in other tissues that might cause gyno, it is always possible that it has SERM-like properties. That too is speculation on my part as I've not seen research to substantiate that idea. It would make for interesting research, and there may be some out there that I'm just not aware of.


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neurotic
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21/01/2019 6:37 pm  

What do you think about Flax seed phytoestrogens, do they have SERM-like properties? It seems that they work similarly to Nolvadex.
The interesting thing is that, it's the flax seeds that contain phytoestrogens, but flax oil barely contains them. However, at high doses of 4-5 tablespoons daily, flax OIL has been shown to reduce gyno. I think that this has to be due to non-ER-mediated mechanisms, don't you think? Will Brink noted that this was perhaps due to Flax's anti-carciogenic properties and, given the fact that gyno is a benign tumour... However, I believe, that might be just speculation on Brink's part...

Cheers.


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Nandi
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21/01/2019 7:13 pm  

Returning to Saw palmetto, I did a medline search for assays measuring the estrogenicity of the putative estrogenic compound in the herb, Beta-sitosterol. The most recent entry had this to say, suggesting that it has little if any estrogenic properties:

Reprod Toxicol. 2000 Mar-Apr;14(2):111-7.

Assessment of estrogenicity by using the delayed implanting rat model and examples.

Cummings AM, Laws SC.

Reproductive Toxicology Division, National Health and Environmental Effects Research Laboratory, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Research Triangle Park, NC 27711, USA. cummings.audrey@epa.gov

Endocrine disrupting chemicals have recently drawn increased interest. The delayed implanting rat model is a method that can identify and quantify the estrogenic activity of a chemical. In rats hypophysectomized after breeding, the administration of progesterone delays embryo implantation, and exposure to one dose of an estrogenic substance initiates implantation. Although methoxychlor was ineffective at dosages below 400 mg/kg when given by injection, the administration of the chemical by gavage resulted in an increase in the percent of fertilized rats exhibiting implantation sites. These results were statistically significant at dosages of 50, 100, 200, and 300 mg methoxychlor/kg. When bisphenol A was administered, by subcutaneous injection, dosages of 50, 100, and 200 mg/kg induced implantation. Only the 400 mg/kg dose of 4-tert-octylphenol was effective. Doses of beta-sitosterol up to 30 mg/kg failed to initiate implantation. These data confirm previous evidence of the availability of this model for evaluating estrogenic activity and provide estimates of the estrogenic potencies of several environmentally important chemicals.


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hhajdo
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21/01/2019 8:12 pm  

It can also block prolactin induced prostate growth.

J Biomed Sci. 1995 Oct;2(4):357-365. Related Articles, Links

The Lipidosterolic Extract fromSerenoa repens Interferes with Prolactin Receptor Signal Transduction.

Vacher P, Prevarskaya N, Skryma R, Audy MC, Vacher AM, Odessa MF, Dufy B.

Laboratory of Neurophysiology, University of Bordeaux II, CNRS URA 1200, Bordeaux, France.

The lipidosterolic extract from the saw palmetto Serenoa repens (LSESr) is commonly used for medical treatment of benign prostatic hypertrophia due to its ability to inhibit 5alpha-reductase which permits the conversion of Testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, the active androgen on prostate cell proliferation. However, the complete action mechanism of LSESr is still unknown. Several lines of evidence suggest that, in addition to inhibition of 5alpha-reductase, it may interfere with the action of prolactin (PRL). We therefore investigated a possible interference of this plant extract with another hormone that controls prostate gland growth, PRL. As the action mechanism of PRL is now fully documented in Chinese hamster ovary cells expressing the PRL receptor, we have conducted our experiments on these cells. In this study, using electrophysiological (whole-cell recording and single-channel recording), microspectrofluorimetric and biochemical techniques, we show that LSESr (1-30 &mgr;g/ml) reduced the basal activity of a K(+) channel and of protein kinase C (PKC) in CHO cells. In addition, pretreatment of the cells with 1-10 &mgr;g/ml LSESr for 6-36 h abolished the effects of PRL on [Ca(2+)](i), K(+) conductance and PKC. LSESr may block PRL-induced prostate growth by inhibiting several steps of PRL receptor signal transduction. LSESr may also be useful for diseases implicating PRL.

Posted by: jboldman
Nandi is correct in that i usually view things thru the filtering lenses of injectable supraphysiologic test!

In europe a very common combination for treatment of BPH is stinging nettle Root(Urtica dioica ) and pygeum.

The great thing about saw palmetto is(as nandi pointed out above) that it is a multifaceted approach to the problem, both type I and II 5a reductase inhibitor as well as an alpha 1 adrenoreceptor antagonist and also an estrogen antagonist in the prostate.

)Eur Urol. 1992;21(4):309-14. Related Articles, Links
Evidence that Serenoa repens extract displays an antiestrogenic activity in prostatic tissue of benign prostatic hypertrophy patients.)

jb


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spyder
(@spyder)
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Posts: 1
21/01/2019 9:08 pm  

I don't mean to bud into your thread bro,But Prostate protection
has been on my mind lately I was wondering about using finastride (propecia) would this hinder any gains and is there any negative sides ? Other wise what could be used


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